HL Deb 30 November 1961 vol 235 cc1215-8

3.15 p.m.

LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether their attention has been called to the demoting of an air pilot by an independent airways company on the ground that he decided not to fly an aircraft home because of dangerous weather conditions and his subsequent dismissal on alleged grounds of redundancy; and whether they will make a statement.]

THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD MILLS)

My Lords, a most serious view would be taken of any action by an air operator to put pressure on his pilots to fly in dangerous conditions. The case to which the noble Lord refers came to the notice of the Ministry of Aviation on October 16. The Director of Aviation Safety is responsible for the issue of certificates, but firms are competent to secure the safe operation of their air transport services, and he made an immediate investigation. This showed nothing requiring action on grounds of safety. Since then the matter has been the subject of further inquiries, and these confirm that there is nothing requiring any action by the Minister or the Director of Aviation Safety on grounds of safety or otherwise. I understand legal proceedings are pending, arising out of this case.

LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH

My Lords, I am obliged to the noble Lord for his Answer. May I ask him one or two questions? Does that mean that, in the opinion of the Minister, the pilot could have flown back safely, although it is alleged that another aircraft on a fairly similar route came to disaster? The pilot himself says: I took off in the first place as scheduled, though much against my better judgment, but I turned back because conditions were impossible for a Viking, and I landed at Pisa. Moreover, he had the convenience of the passengers in mind. The Minister would agree that the Minister of Aviation is responsible, in the end, for licensing and for safety. What I am worried about is that pilots are going to be afraid of exercising their own judgment, as they must, on the spot. It might discourage pilots in these undertakings from exercising their judgment and being careful at a time when the public safety might be endangered.

LORD SALTOUN

My Lords, before the noble Lord answers that question, may I ask Her Majesty's Government whether, supposing legal proceedings are pending, the answers to those questions are not likely to be premature?

LORD MILLS

My Lords, I would rather agree that they are premature, but there was nothing in this case, as I have already said, to need the intervention of the Minister.

LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH

My Lords, would the noble Lord say whether, in the opinion of the Minister, it would have been safe for this journey to be undertaken? That is his real responsibility.

LORD MILLS

That question, my Lords, is exactly what might be sub judice, and I do not propose to answer it.

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, unless we are definitely assured that the matter is sub judice, and that it would really be improper to discuss it, may I ask the noble Lord whether, in a case of this kind, and in view of the undoubted public anxiety on either side—the company may be being maligned, or the public anxiety may be justified—a report could be issued? If in fact the official concerned has investigated this matter, could the evidence be produced as to whether the pilot, the air crew, and the airport officials, were consulted? It is information of this sort which enables us to judge the issue.

LORD MILLS

My Lords, I will consider that case; but in view of the legal proceedings I should like time to consider it.

VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

My Lords, if we are now told that the matter is sub judice, of course we accept that position for the moment. But it is rather extraordinary that the noble Lord puts down a Question of this character on the Paper and he is not informed beforehand that the matter is likely to be sub judice. It is rather unusual in Parliamentary procedure.

LORD CHORLEY

My Lords, did the Minister say whether the writ has in fact been issued in this case? Is it really sub judice in that sort of way?

THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM)

My Lords, I made inquiries about this when I saw the last sentence of my noble friend's Answer. The only information I could get was that the writ had been issued, but it was only oral information, and I thought, in those circumstances, that I had better assume it was sub judice because the writ had been issued. Obviously, if I turn out to be mistaken, noble Lords can return to the charge.

LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH

My Lords, I understand this sub judice point. I have often had to handle it myself and be careful. I think that the House would accept my assurance that if I had been informed by the Government that it was sub judice I would have been sufficiently public-spirited not to put the Question at this stage.

VISCOUNT HAILSHAM

My Lords, I assure the noble Lord that I did not intend any discourtesy to him. I learned only a few minutes before coming into the Chamber that this Answer was to be given. I suppose that if we had had more time we should have thought of more things to do.

LORD OGMORE

My Lords, I agree entirely that if this is sub judice we ought not to refer to it in any way, but there have been a number of other cases of charter companies where accidents have taken place. I would ask whether the Government are making some inquiry into the succession of charter company accidents with a view to avoiding them, if they can be avoided.

LORD MILLS

My Lords, I need hardly say that this subject of accidents, in the case of either charter companies or the corporations, is constantly under review and will remain constantly under review because of its great importance.

LORD OGMORE

My Lords, I suggest that that is not enough. Surely, if we are to avoid accidents—and this particular case was not an accident—is it not possible for a special inquiry to be made into the recent series of accidents to charter aircraft, as this is an exceptional case?

LORD MILLS

My Lords, I think that is rather hypothetical and I am not going to lead the noble Lord, Lord Morrison of Lambeth, to rebuke me again for saying too much.