§ 2.49 p.m.
§ LORD BARNBYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what increases the Foreign Compensation Commission are now authorised to make in the interim payment of compensation to British subjects whose property in Egypt was Egyptianised or suffered loss or damage while under sequestration.]
8§ THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (THE EARL OF DUNDEE)My Lords, the Schedule to the new Foreign Compensation (Egypt) (Interim Distribution) (Amendment) Order, 1961, which was laid before your Lordships yesterday, provides for increased payments on all claims at the following rates:
on claims assessed at £5,000 or under: 90 per cent.;
on claims assessed at up to £50,000—that is, more than£5,000 but less than £50,000: £4,500 (that is, 90 per cent. of the first £5,000) plus 60 per cent. of the balance over £5,000;
on claims assessed at up to £500,000: £31,500 (that isthe amount allowable under the first £50,000) plus 35 per cent. of the balance over £50,000;
and on claims assessed at over £500,000: £189,000, plus 20 per cent. of the balance over £500,000. These increases apply to all claims established before the Commission, whether already assessed or to be assessed in the future.
Thus claims assessed at £5,000 or less receive a 20 per cent. greater dividend than before; and claims assessed at up to £500,000 a 10 per cent. greater dividend on the sum assessed over the first £5,000. The dividend on the amount by which an assessed claim exceeds half a million pounds is not increased but remains at 20 per cent. Nevertheless, your Lordships will see that in fact all claimants will benefit by the increased rates; those whose claims are assessed at £500,000 or more will receive an interim payment of £189,000, that is to say, £50.500 more than under the previous Order.
§ LORD KILLEARNMy Lords, I hope I am in order if, before I ask a supplementary question, which I have here and of which I gave very short preliminary notice, I say what a pleasure it is that I should be addressing my noble kinsman for the first time in his high office, on this subject or any other. Whilst the increased payments provided for in the new Order in Council will be welcomed by a number of claimants, which mainly includes the large public companies whose property was Egyptianised, it is regrettable that it contains no provision of any assistance whatsoever for the great majority of unfortunate individuals whose property 9 was sequestrated, whose assets now lie blocked in Egypt, and who at best can only hopefully expect to receive a transfer of what amounts to £850 sterling. I must not make a speech, but I must quote just two examples.
§ LORD KILLEARNIt is so important, your Lordships really would like to hear it.
§ LORD KILLEARNI am going to go ahead until I am thrown out, because it is such an injustice. I will put it in the form of a question. Is the noble Earl aware that of two claimants, Mr. A and Mr. B, Mr. A has a claim for £50,000 in respect of property which has been Egyptianised or nationalised, call it which you like? Under this new Order Mr. A will receive £31,500, which is not so bad. Mr. B, who unfortunately has only sequestrated assets valued at the same amount, £50,000, can at present only hopefully expect to receive a transfer amounting to £850. That is a very considerable difference, a glaring difference. I know the noble Earl cannot give an answer off hand, but the difference is so glaring that one hopes and believes it is receivingvery serious consideration by Her Majesty's Government.
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, I am equally glad to reply to my noble friend, whether his observations are didactic or interrogatory. This Order, of course, applies to the compensation in respect of Egyptianised property or in respect of damage to sequestrated property, which has been restored but which suffered damage or deterioration while it was sequestrated. Of course, my noble friend is quite right in assuming that it does not affect the difficulties of those whose property has been restored under the 1959 Agreement, but who cannot get sterling currency out of Egypt.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMy Lords, might I put this point to my noble friend? There is a total sum available of £27½ million under the Anglo-Egyptian Agreement. I think the Government would accept that. Is it equitable that one class of payment on the Egyptianised property should have what is in effect a priority over that to owners of sequestrated property?—because, 10 there being only £27½ million in all, by the time they are satisfied there may remain practically nothing for the owners of sequestrated property, and they are the ones who need the assistance most. What I would ask the Government is this. While I am sure that everyone is extremely grateful to them for the efforts they have made to try to meet these difficulties, will the case of the owners of sequestrated property, who have not been able to be satisfied because they have been unable to get the information to formulate their claim, be further considered, even if the £27½ million has already been paid out, mostly to the owners of Egyptianised property?
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, I hope I am right in assuming that the noble Marquess is now referring not to the general difficulty of getting desequestrated property released, but to the payments of compensation to those who have had their sequestrated property restored and who are entitled to claim for damage, because they are two quite different points. None of this £27½ million could be used to help the people who have had their property restored to them, and whose only difficulty is that they cannot get money for it because of currency difficulties. It can be used to pay compensation in respect of damage which was suffered by the property while it was held by the Egyptians. It is, I think, obvious that the formulation and assessment of these claims must take some time, probably longer than the assessment of claims for compensation for Egyptianised property. Certainly it is estimated that after the payments under this Order have been made in respect of claims already assessed and approved, there will still be a margin left in the fund. We cannot yet estimate the amount of these claims, because they take so long to formulate and to be assessed.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMyLords, I quite appreciate what my noble friend has said, that there are two points. But the position in respect of both of them is at present unsatisfactory. What I want to ask the Government is whether they will keep in mind the unsatisfactory position as regards both these two points; that is to say, the people who have not yet been able to formulate claims and, therefore, may 11 not come within the ambit of the £27½ million, and those who may have been satisfied or not satisfied but cannot get their money back to England. Those are the two difficulties facing the claimants at the present time. I understand that there is likely to be a debate on this subject in the near future. I do not wish to elaborate it any further, but these are points which are still worrying a great many people.
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, the answer to my noble friend's question is, of course, Yes. The Government have both the sets of cases in mind. I would just remind your Lordships again that the only class of case affected by this Order and by the Question on the Paper is what one might perhaps call—a smaller amount of money is involved —the claims for damage during the time in which the property was held by the Egyptians.
§ LORD COLYTONMy Lords, is there not a third class of British subject involved in this; that is, the 10 persons at least whose properties were desequestrated and whose properties have now been resequestrated by the Nasser Government under recent ordinances?
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, that is quite a different question which has arisen in the last month or two. I do not think it arises out of this Question, and perhaps my noble friend would like to look at the reply given in another place on November 15. But, of course, the fact is we cannot give any satisfactory information about this until we have it, and we have not got all the information yet.
§ LORD BARNBYMy Lords, another question has been raised and the noble Earl has been good enough to reply to it since it is all part of the same subject. As facts have been quoted in another place of 37 British nationals who have had their property resequestrated, will he bear that in mind and consider it?
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEOf course, my Lords. But I do not think we can answer too many questions which do not arise out of the one on the Paper.
§ LORD BARNBYMy Lords, may I ask whether the noble Earl will bear that in mind.
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEECertainly.
§ LORD KILLEARNMy Lords, may I just add something of which I presume the noble Earl is already aware, that under this recent enactment in Cairo the firm of solicitors who are looking after the interests of these unfortunate claimants have now been sequestrated themselves?