HL Deb 20 May 1930 vol 77 cc929-32

Procedure for making Orders and for confirming Schemes.

Orders.

(4) An Order shall come into force on such date as the Minister may specify in the notice published under paragraph (3) of this Schedule and the Minister may specify different dates for different provisions of an Order.

(5) The publication of notice that an Order has been made shall be conclusive evidence that all the requirements of this Act in respect of proceedings required to be taken previously to the publication of the said notice have been complied with and that the Order is within the powers of this Act.

EARL DE LA WARR

This is just a drafting Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 61, line 38, after ("Order") insert ("and to be given to the council of every county and county borough in which any part of the area affected by the Order is situate").—(Earl De La Warr.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD DANESFORT moved to leave out all words in paragraph (4) after "An Order shall" and to insert "if there is no appeal against the same or any part thereof under Section thirteen of this Act come into force on the expiration of three months after the publication of the notice under paragraph (3) of this Schedule, and if there is an appeal against the said Order or any part thereof and the appeal tribunal shall affirm or vary the said Order, the said Order so affirmed or varied shall come into force on the expiration of one month after the appeal tribunal have given their decision."

The noble Lord said: The reason for this Amendment is that when the Schedule was originally drawn up the decision of the Minister was final. Since the Bill has been in Committee we have inserted provisions for an appeal from the decision of the Minister to the appeal tribunal. Consequently the words which appear in subsection (4) of the Schedule become inappropriate. The words as printed there are: An Order shall come into force on such date as the Minister may specify in the notice published under paragraph (3) of this Schedule and the Minister may specify different dates for different provisions of an Order. That will not work if there is an appeal. If there is no appeal it will be all right, but if there is an appeal then, of course, the Order cannot come into operation until after the appeal has been heard. Therefore my proposal, putting it shortly, is that if there is no appeal it is to come into operation three months after the publication of the Order, giving time for persons to consider whether they will appeal or not, and if there is an appeal against the Order, and the appeal tribunal shall affirm or vary the Order, the Order so affirmed or varied shall come into force on the expiration of one month after the appeal tribunal has given its decision. I think the noble Earl will see that some such words are necessary in order to bring the Schedule into conformity with the rest of the Bill as amended.

Amendment moved— Page 62, line 1, leave out from ("shall") to the end of line 4, and insert the said new words.—(Lord Danesfort.)

EARL DE LA WARR

We have so many references to the appeal tribunal that really we shall have to go right through the Bill and see where the word "appeal" needs to be properly drafted in. Subject to that consideration I think we can accept the Amendment for the moment.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD DYNEVOR moved to leave out paragraph (5). The noble Lord said: A good deal has already been said about this paragraph. It is a famous attempt of a Minister to put himself above the law. The last part of the paragraph is perhaps the worst, where it says that the publication of notice that an Order has been made shall be proof that the Order is within the powers of the Act; that is to say, the Minister says everything is all right, whether it is within the law or without. The subject of the power of Ministers has been often referred to in your Lordships' House and in the Press, and I believe I am right in saying that this is the most far-reaching attempt to give power to a Minister that has ever been put into a Bill.

Amendment moved— Page 62, line 5, leave out paragraph (5). —(Lord Dynevor.)

EARL DE LA WARR

I think it is quite clear that this Schedule will have to be amended in view of the decision that your Lordships have taken with regard to the appeal tribunal. I notice that Lord Bayford has an Amendment to this paragraph which more or less follows the wording of the original Schedule. Perhaps I might suggest that the noble Lord should withdraw his Amendment to leave out the whole of paragraph (5) and then we could accept Lord Bayford's Amendment in principle.

LORD DYNEVOR

I have one difficulty, because I think Lord De La Warr himself is going to move the omission of the whole of the Second Schedule later on. For the moment perhaps we had better take subsection (5) out. We can decide later what is to be put in.

EARL DE LA WARR

That proposed alteration of the Second Schedule was in order to meet certain objections of noble Lords to the power of the Minister. That power has gone. I shall, therefore, not be moving that Amendment, as your Lordships have decided on another procedure. The Second Schedule will stand as it is.

THE EARL OF HALSBURY

I have an Amendment to the Second Schedule, which I was not going to move, on the understanding that the noble Earl would move his Amendment altering the Second Schedule. I quite understand that things have taken place in your Lordships' House which make that possibly a difficulty in the way. I do not propose to move my next Amendment, but it must be quite on the understanding that when I see what is going to be moved on the Report stage, I shall be free to criticise and move an Amendment there. At present, I do not propose to move my Amendment.

EARL DE LA WARR

The noble Earl is quite free to do what he likes on Report, but I think he will find that his Amendment does not really fit in with the existing position in the House. I really regarded them all the time as alternative proposals.

LORD DYNEVOR

I will withdraw my Amendment for the moment, and let Lord Bayford move his.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

LORD BAYFORD moved, in paragraph (5), to substitute "prima facie" for "conclusive."

Amendment moved— Page 62, line 6, leave out ("conclusive") and insert ("prima facie").—(Lord Bay-ford.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Amendment moved— Page 62, line 8, leave out ("and that the Order is within the powers of this Act").—(Lord Bayford.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Second Schedule, as amended, agreed to.

Third Schedule:

Back to