§ THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN rose to ask for definite information as to the day and the terms on which the Government will pay for the wool crop, the sale or disposal of which is at present prohibited; and also the date on which the wool will be removed from the premises of the owners.
§ The noble Earl said: My Lords, it was on June 8 that the Army Council issued an Order which forbade from that moment all further dealings in wool, whether public or privates. The Order contained nothing except that. The result, of course, was utter disorganisation in the wool trade. It may be said that that could not be helped. But it was very unfortunate. This Order was issued by the Army Council, who I have no reason to believe possess any particular knowledge of wool and the wool trade, on the morning on which more than one public sale by auction was taking place. That in itself introduced complete disorganisation into the wool trade, and this has prevailed ever since. All that the public knew at that time was that it was impossible to deal in wool.
§ About two or three days afterwards the Secretary to the War Office issued a notice in the Press stating that arrangements were under consideration for the purchase of the whole wool crop of 1916. It was then that it was made certain that the War Office meant to purchase the whole of the wool crop. But with regard to the arrangements, it was merely stated that they were under consideration. The action taken had stopped the whole of the trade, but the arrangements under which the trade was to continue were merely "under consideration." Had any scheme then been settled, or has any scheme been settled since? When the Army Council issued their Order, had they realised what an enormous dislocation of trade they were creating? It is not as if this could have been a matter that came upon the Army Council by surprise. They must have known months before that they proposed to take this wool. I conclude that it is required for 398 the clothing of the Army. Whatever the purpose, there was no reason why the authorities should not have considered the matter months before and have produced their scheme at the time they stopped the trade. I do not wish to find fault in any captious way, but I must say that this action does seem to show an utter want of business capacity and forethought, and I am afraid it is another instance of the practice, with which we are not wholly unfamiliar, of the Government launching schemes before the details had been thought out.
§ With regard to the arrangements, we have no further public information. I have seen in the newspapers a rumour that the Board of Agriculture have been introduced into this matter for the first time, apparently as negotiators and dealers between the producers of wool and the market generally. We have been told—it is merely a rumour, and it may not be correct—that at the present moment negotiations are going on with the farmers, based to a large extent on the prices of the year 1913. I hope that is not true; because, whatever may be the right thing to do, clearly to take the average of the prices of the year 1913 cannot be just. Consider what was done the other day by the Treasury in the case of American securities. Your Lordships know that the Treasury commandeered the American securities belonging to all investors in this country. I do not say that this was not right and necessary; but they issued at the same time a declaration that they would give the price of the day. At all events they did not propose to go back to the prices of two years before.
§ I should like to know the day on which the Government will pay for this wool, because, remember, they are shutting it up and preventing dealings in it. On what day and on what terms will they pay for the wool crop? Also, on what date will the wool be removed from the premises of the owners? I have no doubt that the War Office know very little about the wool trade. They probably do not know that if wool is kept on the premises of the farmers it is not merely a great inconvenience to them, but the wool becomes lighter the longer it is kept, and if it is kept for any length of time the probability is that a considerable proportion of it will be spoilt. It is for that reason I ask that we may be informed of the date on which the wool will be removed from the premises of the owners and under what conditions.
399LORD SANDHURSTMy Lords, I am not in a position to follow the noble Earl into all the details which he has raised, but I may say that there is a scheme approaching completion, and if at an early date the noble Earl desires to raise the matter again I shall be happy to give him the best explanation I can. But at present the arrangements are necessarily incomplete. In reply to the Question on the Paper, I may say that the wool of the 1916 clip will be acquired by the Government at fixed prices based upon the prices ruling in the months immediately preceding the outbreak of war, with an addition of 30 per cent. in view of the increased expenses of farmers. Delivery of the bulk of the clip will be taken as soon as the necessary organisation for collection and purchase has been set up. Payment will be made to the extent of 75 per cent. of the estimated value on delivery, and the balance after final inspection: but it is impossible to fix any one day upon which payment will be made for the whole wool clip. In regard to the pre-war price, I may say that under the Defence of the Realm Regulations market prices as the criteria in connection with the output of factories applied to leather, boots, flax, jute, and so on, are definitely excluded, and that the same principle is applied now to the purchase of the wool clip.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNThe noble Lord has not given any reason to excuse the War Office for having stopped this trade absolutely on the day on which they issued their notice.
§ LORD PARMOORMy Lords, in the district where I live it is a very important matter to farmers to know what the terms are to be and when they are likely to be carried out. I wish the noble Lord could answer these two questions. First, does he mean the percentage to be additional to the price which a particular farmer got for his wool in 1913, or does he mean the percentage to be additional to the then average market price? There are many farmers who pride themselves on the character of their wool and the way in which it is brought to market, and who have obtained prices considerably in advance of the market price as regards the particular staple of wool in which they are 400 interested. I wish to know whether those farmers will be fined—for that is what it comes to—for having in old days endeavoured to produce the best quality of wool. That is a very important matter to farmers in the district in which I live.
The second question I should like to ask is this. Why is the figure of 30 per cent. adopted? I have made calculations in my own district and I find that in order to meet the extra expense incurred through the increase in wages and the increased price of feeding stuffs, the farmer would want an additional 50 per cent. As a matter of fact, the prices are, and were a year ago—I take the 1914 prices in the market—as nearly as possible, at any rate in my district, 50 per cent. above what they were in the pre-war time; and the natural addition as regards the price of wool did not more than meet the increased cost of production owing to advanced wages and the additional cost of feeding stuffs. I assume that this action has been taken by the Army Council because the wool is wanted for war purposes. But if this artificially low price is placed on wool while producers of woollen manufactures are able to get increased prices, their prices not being regulated, it will be placing an undue hardship on farmers. Farmers in this country have held their own in the past under very bad conditions. They do not desire to make anything like an undue profit out of the necessities of the war, but it is a serious matter to them if the prices of their produce are reduced to such an extent that they are in a worse position than before the war broke out. I do not know whether the noble Lord can give any further information on the two points I have raised.
§ LORD RIBBLESDALEMy Lords, I associate myself with the two questions which Lord Parmoor has asked, though I do not suppose, from the tenor of Lord Sandhurst's answer just now, that we are likely to get any replies to them. I suppose the noble Lord's statement that a scheme is approaching completion and will shortly be issued is the Government's answer to the question put by Lord Camperdown. I come from a sheep farming district, and last Wednesday we had a very large market at Gisburne, a market which belongs to me, where about £6,000 worth of stock changed hands. Lord Camperdown has not at all exaggerated matters when he says that the 401 course taken by the Government and the extreme uncertainties and mysteries which seem to surround it have created a good deal of apprehension. The cause of most apprehension in my part of the country are the conditions of delivery. Up in the fells the farms are very remote and a long way from stations; the farmers are small men; the war has taken away their workers, and they do not feel at all confident as to how they are to pack the wool. They have long distances to cover and very few horses. The other night when I was up there a deputation came to see me about the matter, and I drafted a letter which, owing to recent events, I did not send on to Lord Selborne, who has always been very kind about our farming affairs in that part of the country. Some very responsible people, whom I am glad to represent in this matter, point out that unless you have in remote districts a depôt of some sort which will undertake at a reasonable commission all the questions of sorting into qualities, packing, and delivering, the farmers will consider themselves very hardly treated by the way in which this matter is being dealt with. I agree with the noble Earl, Lord Camper-down. I cannot see why the Government's scheme should be incomplete. The authorities must have long known that they would want a great deal of wool. As the noble Earl has said, wool loses as time goes on. The farmers have no places in which to keep it, and the Government will really get themselves into great difficulties unless they decide exactly what they are going to do and let the farmers know the arrangement as soon as possible.
§ LORD HENEAGEIn Lincolnshire there is a great deal of alarm over this subject. It is not so much a question of the Government having commandeered the wool as the amount of uncertainty that hangs about the matter. It is shown most clearly by the way in which this action has been taken that nobody acquainted with wool has had anything to do with this Order. Otherwise it would have been recognised that the Order was issued at the most inconvenient time and in the most inconvenient way. Farmers had been looking forward to selling their wool and having it taken up in order that they might have more money at their bankers for carrying on their labour up to the harvest; but at the present moment there is no arrangement in sight to which they can look forward. They want some 402 assurance that there are business men dealing with this question. I hope that if the noble Lord is unable to give a better answer than that with which he has been entrusted this afternoon the question will be raised again, because the present state of things has disorganised the whole of the financial arrangements of a large number of farmers throughout the country.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCHI do not think the noble Lords who have spoken at all exaggerated the seriousness of this question. I must say that I think the course taken has been high-handed and outrageous. Farmers, of course, are willing to do all that is possible to help the Government, but they feel that Government Departments should adopt business-like arrangements, and there can be no excuse for this Order being issued on the day of the first wool sales. There are many other serious questions in connection with this. My noble friend Lord Ribblesdale alluded to the question of packing. Perhaps the War Office are not aware that there are a large number of sheep farmers who do not do the packing themselves. The wool is sent immediately to dealers. These farmers have no premises in which to store the wool. What is to happen to them? It may not matter to the War Office how much wool is spoilt, but it is a serious thing for the farmers.
I should like to know what the authorities are going to do about foreign wool. Are they going, when it comes into this country, to commandeer foreign wool at the price at which it stood two years ago? A great deal of the material for making clothing for the Army will be made out of oversea wool, either from foreign countries or from our Colonies. Why should the farmers of this country be treated differently from any one else? The only fair and reasonable course is for the War Office to pay the market price. I have taken the trouble to have this worked out in the case of two farms, and to compare the price which the War Office are offering and the current price at the time. In the case of one farm with a rental of £230 the loss to the farmer will be £60; in the case of the other farm, the rental of which is over £800, the loss—namely, the difference between what the War Office offer and what the farmer would have been able to get in the market—is over £300.
403 There is another question. Are farmers who have lately purchased sheep to be recouped for their outlay? In the valuation of sheep the prospects in regard to wool and the price of wool enter into the calculation; and if the farmer is to be deprived of part of his wool profits through the fixing of an arbitrary price, surely the War Office ought to refund to him a portion of the purchase price of the sheep. I am not a lawyer and do not know whether the War Office have power to do what they propose; but, whether they have or not, I submit that they ought to reconsider the matter and fix a fair price in consultation with the trade. It is grossly unjust that one particular class of the community should be made to suffer in this way.
LORD SANDHURSTAs noble Lords will understand, I am not in a position to-night to answer the various criticisms which have been made, but I can assure the noble Duke who has just sat down and noble Lords that I will make it my business to convey what has been said as clearly as I can to the War Office; and if one of the noble Lords would be so good as to put another Question down I shall come prepared with the fullest answers I can get.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNMight I ask the noble Lord whether, when making representation to the War Office, he will impress on them the necessity, in fixing the price of this wool, of employing men who know about the trade and about the value of the wool, because from what we have seen up to the present there is not the slightest reason to suppose that this matter has been dealt with by anybody who knows anything about it. The War Office commandeered the wool, but when it came to fixing the price they brought in the Board of Agriculture, which had nothing to do with the matter, which never issued the original Order, and which is not a professional buyer or seller of wool. All one wants is justice. I shall therefore be much obliged to the noble Lord if he will represent in the strongest way to the War Office that this question of price should not be gone into except by a body which is acquainted with the trade and knows the rights and wrongs of the question.