COAL MINES BILL.

HL Deb 13 December 1911 vol 10 cc898-923

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.

Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Emmott.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly.

[The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]

Clause 1 agreed to.

Clauses 2 to 16:

THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (LORD EMMOTT)

My Lords, it may, perhaps, be for your Lordships' convenience that instead of moving these Amendments one by one I draw you Lordships' attention to those Amendments which I consider are more than merely drafting Amendments. If that plan meets with your Lordships' approval, I think the first Amendment that I need draw attention to is on Clause 17. I therefore move the Amendments up to that point en bloc, subject, of course, to giving any explanation of any of them that may be required.

Amendments moved—

Clause 2, page 1, line 16, leave out ("such")

Clause 2, page 1, lines 16 and 17, leave out ("nominate") and insert ("appoint")

Clause 2, page 2, line after ("certificate") insert ("of competency under this Act")

Clause 2, page 2, line 4, leave out from ("A") to ("shall") in line 5 and insert ("small mine")

Clause 2, page 2, lines 9 and 10, leave out ("holding at least a second-class certificate of competency").

Clause 3, page 2, line 24, leave out from ("and") to ("Provided") in line 25 and insert ("where an under manager has been appointed by the owner or agent of the mine, also by that under manager")

Clause 3, page 2, line 25, leave out from ("mine") to the end of line 34

Clause 3, page 2, line 39, leave out ("such supervision being exercised") and insert ("the duties of the manager, or under manager, as the case may be, in respect of daily personal supervision being performed")

Clause 3, page 3, line 1, after ("certificate") insert ("of competency")

Clause 3, page 3, line 2, leave out ("nominated") and insert ("appointed")

Clause 3, page 3, line 6, leave out ("section") and insert ("Act")

Clause 3, page 3, line 8, after ("certificate") insert ("of competency")

Clause 3, page 3, line 13, leave out ("for whom he is acting") and insert ("whose duties he is performing").

Clause 4, page 3, line 17, at beginning insert: ( 1 ) After the first day of January nineteen hundred and thirteen, no person who is the manager of a mine shall, without the approval of the inspector of the division, be the manager of any other mine required to be under the control of a manager if the aggregate number of persons employed underground in the mine of which lie is manager and that other mine exceeds one thousand, or if all the shafts or atlas for the time being in use in working the mine of which he is manager and that other mine do not lie within a circle having a radius not exceeding two miles. (2) Where any person is appointed to be the manager of two or more mines required to be under the control of a manager a separate under manager shall he appointed for each mine.

Clause 4, page 3, lines 22 and 23, leave out ("Provided that if the") and insert ("if the owner, agent, or")

Clause 4, page 3, line 24, leave out ("requirement") and insert ("order").

Clause 5, page 3, line 30, leave out ("by this Act")

Clause 5, page 3, line 33, leave out ("this Part of")

Clause 5, page 3, line 18, leave out ("this Part of").

Clause 6, page 3, line 40, after ("appointment") insert ("in pursuance of this Act")

Clause 6, page 3, line 42, leave out ("in pursuance of this Act").

Clause 8, page 4, lines 13 and 14, leave out ("not more than seventeen persons and composed as follows")

Clause 8, page 4, line 20, leave out ("together with") and insert ("and (d)")

Clause 9, page 4, lines 36 and 37, leave out ("provided that such") and insert ("of competency under this Act, and the")

Clause 9, page 5, line 7, leave out ("except") and insert ("or")

Clause 9, page 5, line 9, leave out from ("degree") to ("of") in line 10.

Clause 9, page 5, line 10, after ("and") insert: (iii) has given satisfactory evidence of his sobriety, experience, and general good conduct; and

Clause 9, page 5, line 15, leave out from ("conditions") to the end of line 21 and insert ("and for requiring at least one of the examiners in every viva voce examination to be a person possessing practical acquaintance with those conditions").

Clause 11, page 6, line 18, after the first ("of") insert ("or while temporarily performing the duties of")

Clause 11, page 7, line 9, after ("incompetency") insert ("or of such"), and after ("misconduct") insert ("as aforesaid").

Clause 12, page 8, line 18, after ("certificate") insert ("of competency under this Act").

Clause 14, page 9, line 1, after ("such") insert ("other")

Clause 14, page 9,line 2, leave out from ("sides") to ("and") in line 3.

Clause 14, page 9,line 3, after ("safety") insert ("(including the checking and recording of the number of persons under his charge)")

Clause 14, page 9,lines 30 and 31, leave out ("such duties as aforesaid") and insert ("his statutory duties").

Clause 15, page 9, line 39, after ("competency") insert ("under this Act")

Clause 15, page 10, line 2, leave out ("shall be") and insert ("have been")

Clause 15, page 10, line 4, after ("certificate") insert ("in the prescribed form")

Clause 15, page 10, line 23, leave out front the beginning of the line to the first ("a") in line 27

Clause 15, page 10, line 27, leave out ("obtain") and insert ("have obtained")

Clause 15, page 10, line 33, leave out from ("be") to ("for") in line 35, and insert ("kept at the office at the mine and, whenever a requisition in that behalf is made by an inspector, produced")

Clause 16, page 10, line 40, leave out ("of") and insert ("and have had") and after ("experience,") insert ("of underground work")

Clause 16, page 11, line 8, leave out ("legal representative of") and insert ("person acting as legal adviser to )

Clause 16, page 11, line 27, after ("aforesaid") insert ("or if the manager fails to produce the certificates of the firemen, examiners or deputies").—(Lord Emmott.)

VISCOUNT CHILSTON

My Lords, I do not raise any objection to the course suggested by the noble Lord. I have been carefully through the Amendments and they all appear to me, with few exceptions, to be drafting and consequential Amendments. I therefore think the suggestion put forward by the noble. Lord in charge of the Bill is one which the House might very wisely accept.

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clauses 2 to 16, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 17:

LORD EMMOTT

This is a partly drafting Amendment. It eliminates the references to clauses of the Bill by number, references which are undesirable if they can be avoided, and it applies to firemen's examinations made during shifts.

Amendment moved— Clause 17, page 12, line 1, leave out from the first ("of") to the end of line 2, and insert ("the reports required to be made under the last preceding section and under the provisions of this Act relating to inspections before commencing work and inspections during shifts").—(Lord Emmott.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 17, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 18 agreed to.

Clause 19 to 28:

LORD EMMOTT

These are all drafting Amendments.

Amendments moved—

Clause 19, page 13, line 17, leave out the first ("or") and leave out the second ("a").

Clause 20, page 13, line 32, leave out the first ("a") and insert ("an accurate")

Clause 20, page 13, line 37, after ("basis") insert ("being variations")

Clause 20, page 14, line 26, leave out ("and section").

Clause 21, page 15, line 22, leave out ("or dislocation")

Clause 21, page 15, lines 22 and 23, leave out ("or the seam") and insert ("in the mine, or of the seam, as the case may be")

Clause 21, page 15, line 26, leave out ("boundary")

Clause 21, page 15, lines 33 and 34, leave out ("or the seam") and insert ("in the mine, or of the seam, as the case may be")

Clause 21, page 16, line 29, leave out ("of") and

Clause 23, page 17, line 12, leave out ("at the office of") and insert ("in the office at").—(Lord Emmott.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clauses 19 to 28, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 29:

LORD EMMOTT

My second Amendment to this clause carries with it something more than drafting. It extends the provisions for measuring air currents to small mines. There are always persons of experience, I believe, in connection with small mines, and there is no reason at all why the air currents should not be measured in those mines, and it may be very necessary for their safety that they should be measured.

Amendments moved—

Clause 29, page 21, line 1, leave out ("kept normally") and insert ("normally kept")

Clause 29, page 21, line 16, leave out from ("in.") to the first ("the") in line 17 and insert ("every mine")

Clause 29, page 21, line 18, leave out ("other")

Clause 29, page 21, line 30, leave out from ("that") to the end of the subsection, and insert ("in case of a mine which is liable to spontaneous combustion of coal, a place shall be deemed to be in a fit state for working or passing therein, notwithstanding that the air contains either less than nineteen per cent. of oxygen, or more than one and a quarter per cent, of carbon dioxide, if the mine has been exempted by order of the. Secretary of State, and the conditions on which the exemption is granted are complied with").—(Lord Emmott)

VISCOUNT CHILSTON

I understand the noble Lord to say that the existing officials will be able in these smaller mines to take these measurements, and that further expert help will not be required—in fact, that you are not placing a greater burden on the owners of these mines than they have to bear at the present moment. I should like to be reassured on that point.

LORD EMMOTT

I understand that there must be somebody in connection with the mine—in the case of a small mine it might possibly be the owner himself—who would be able to do this. It will not, so I am told, necessitate the mine owner engaging a new official for this purpose.

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 29, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 30 agreed to.

Clause 31:

LORD EMMOTT

These are drafting Amendments.

Amendments moved—

Clause 31, page 22, line 13, after ("underground") insert ("either (a)")

Clause 31, page 22, line 17, leave out from ("underground") to ("when") in line 20 and insert ("or (b)")

Clause 31, page 22, lines 22 and 23 leave out ("adequate ventilation for the mine") and insert ("such sufficient amount of ventilation as aforesaid")

Clause 31, page 22, line 35, leave out from ("a") to ("and") in line 30, and insert ("small mine").—(Lord Emmott.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 31, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 32:

LORD EMMOTT

This is an Amendment that I must explain. It deals with the clause which enacts that safety lamps are to be used in mines where an explosion has taken place during the last twelve months. The alteration that is made by this Amendment is to allow six months' grace to mine owners so that they may improve the ventilation. It is only a fair concession to mine owners that they should have this period of grace.

Amendment moved—

Clause 32, page 23, line 29, after ("mine") insert: ("and (ii) for the purpose of paragraph (b) of this subsection an explosion occurring before the commencement of this Act shall not betaken into account.")—(Lord Emmott.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD EMMOTT

The next Amendment is formal.

Amendment moved— Clause 32, page 24, line 4, after the second ("a") insert ("locked").—(Lord Emmott.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD EMMOTT

The next Amendment enacts that where safety lamps are required in pursuance of this section in any seam they shall also be used in any cross-measure drift. The danger in a cross-measure drift is just as great as in the seam itself, and if the enactment as to safety lamps applies to the airway in the seam it should also apply to the cross-measure drift.

Amendment moved— Clause 32, page 24, line 14, after ("air") insert: ("(5) Where safety lamps are required in pursuance of this section to be used in any seam they shall also be used in any cross-measure drift connected with that seam.")—(Lord Emmott.)

VISCOUNT CHILSTON

I agree with the noble Lord that the Bill would barely be effective if the same provision did not apply in a cross-measure drift as applies to the seam itself. I think that is the only alteration suggested by the noble Lord, and if that is so it is a considerable improvement in the Bill.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 32, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 33 agreed to.

Clauses 34 to 38:

LORD EMMOTT

These are all drafting Amendments.

Amendments moved—

Clause 34, page 24, line 31, leave out ("such competent person as aforesaid") and insert ("a competent person appointed in writing by the manager for the purpose").

Clause 35, page 25, lines 25 and 26, leave out ("under this Act regulating the use of explosives") and insert ("made by the Secretary of State")

Clause 35, page 26, lines I to 8, leave out subsection (3) and insert: ("(3) No person shall search any workmen in pursuance of this section unless he has previously given an opportunity to some two workmen employed in the mine to search himself, and no lucifer, match, or such apparatus as aforesaid, and no cigar, cigarette, pipe, or contrivance for smoking has been found on him.")

Clause 36, page 26, line 24, after ("such") insert ("two")

Clause 36, page 26, line 26, leave out ("such two shafts or outlets") and insert ("them")

Clause 36, page 26, line 28, leave out ("a") and insert ("the").

Clause 37, page 28, line 18, leave out. ("and") and insert ("or").

Clause 38, page 28, line 30, after the second ("every") insert ("such").—(Lord Emmott.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clauses 34 to 38, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 39 agreed to.

Clause 40 .

LORD EMMOTT

The first four Amendments in this clause are all drafting.

Amendments moved—

Clause 40, page 29, line 17, leave out winding") and after ("apparatus") insert ("ordinarily used for raising or lowering persons to or from the surface")

Clause 40, page 29, line 18, after ("shall") insert ("if the shaft is vertical")

Clause 40, page 29, line 21, after ("mine") insert ("or class of mine")

Clause 40, page 29, line 23, after ("mine") insert ("or class of mine").—(Lord Emmott.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

LORD EMMOTT

The next Amendment is inserted here because a promise was made on the Report stage in the other House to give owners a period of glace for altering their winding apparatus. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Clause 40, page 20, line 23, after ("mine") insert ("and shall come into operation oft the first day of July nineteen hundred and thirteen or such later date as in view of the circumstances of the mine may be fixed by the inspector of the division.").—(Lord Emmott.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD EMMOTT

The remaining Amendments to this clause are drafting.

Amendments moved—

Clause 40, page 30, line 20, leave out ("winding")

Clause 40, page 30, line 24, leave out ("winding")

Clause 40, page 31, line 4, leave out ("other").—(Lord Emmott.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 40, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 41 agreed to.

Clause 42:

LORD EMMOTT

These are all drafting Amendments.

Amendments moved—

Clause 42, page 31, line 18, leave out ("coming into operation") and insert ("commencement")

Clause 42, page 31, line 34, leave out ("coming into operation") and insert ("commencement")

Clause 42, page 32, line 2, leave out ("coining into operation") and insert ("commencement")

Clause 42, page 32, lines 3 and 4, leave out ("in that mine or seam")

Clause 42, page 32, line 22, leave out ("coining into operation") and insert ("commencement")

Clause 42, page 32, line 24, leave out ("at air crossings") and insert ("for the purpose of crossing").—(Lord Emmott.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 42, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 43:

LORD EMMOTT

All the Amendments to this clause are drafting.

Amendments moved—

Clause 43, page 33, line 9, after ("Provided that") insert: ("(i) in the case of a haulage road in which such a clear space as aforesaid has been provided, but the space so provided has in sonic part of it been reduced to a width of less than two feet by reason of some cause over which the owner, agent, or manager of the mine has no control, the foregoing prohibition shall not apply during the time (not exceeding the time reasonably required for the purpose) during which the repairs necessary for restoring the width to two feet are being carried out; and (ii)")

Clause 43, page 33, line 12, leave out ("coming into operation") and insert ("commencement")

Clause 43, page 33, line 20, leave out from ("disputes") to end of line 29.

Clause 43, page 34, line 4, leave out from ("rails") to the end of line 6, and insert:

("Provided that— (a) where there are two parallel lines of rails the foregoing provisions shall not apply if there is a clear space of at least three feet between tubs standing on those rails; and (b)")

Clause 43, page 34, line 17, leave out from ("any") to ("of") in line 19, and insert ("mine as respects which the Secretary of State is satisfied that it will be worked out within three years from the commencement").—(Lord Emmott.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 43, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 44 to 51:

LORD EMMOTT

I move the Amendments down to Clause 51. They are all drafting.

Amendments moved—

Clause 44, page 34, line 34 to page 35, line 6, leave out subsection (3) and insert: ("(3) Every refuge hole shall be—

1. "(a) as near as may be three feet in width and not less, than four feet in depth;
2. "(b) not less in height than the height of the haulage road at the point where the hole is, or six feet, whichever is the less;
3. "(c) if such a clear space as aforesaid is provided, on the same side of the road as that space;
4. "(d) if no such clearspace as aforesaid is provided, on the same side of the road as the other refuge boles, or where the road is on a curve, on the outer side of the curve;
5. "(e) marked with a distinctive number;
6. "(f) if necessary to make it readily visible, constantly kept whitewashed both inside and for a distance of not less than one foot round the aperture;
7. "(g) kept clean.

(4) Nothing shall be placed in any refuge hole or across the entrance thereto so as to impede ingress.

Clause 44, page 35, line 6, leave out from ("ingress") to ("within") in line 8, and insert ("notwithstanding anything in this section it shall not be necessary to provide refuge holes on any road").

Clause 46, page 35, line 29, leave out ("of") and insert ("consisting of three or more")

Clause 46, page 35, line 35, after ("haulage") insert ("not being endless-rope or endless-chain haulage")

Clause 46, page 35, line 36, leave out ("other than endless-rope haulage")

Clause 46, page 36, lines 1 and 2, leave out ("other than endless rope") and insert ("haulage not being endless rope or endless chain").

Clause 50, page 37, line 1, leave out the second ("of") and insert ("consisting of three or more")

Clause 50, page 37, line 16, leave out ("or each set of cogs").

Clause 51, page 38, line I, leave out ("gate-end").—(Lord Emmott.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clauses 44 to 51, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 52 agreed to.

Clause 53:

LORD EMMOTT

The first is a necessary Amendment to insure the presence of a banksman at the top of a shaft during lowering. That is not specifically provided for in the Bill as presented to your Lordships' House, but it is considered essential by experts. The second Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.

Amendments moved—

Clause 53, page 38, line 24, leave out from ("Act") to ("at") in line 26 and insert: ("(2) There shall be in attendance at the top of every shaft by which any persons are about to be lowered into the mine a competent person for the purpose of receiving and transmitting signals, and as long as persons are in the mine below ground a competent person shall be in constant attendance for that purpose.")

Clause 53, page 38, line 31, leave out from ("raised") to the end of line 32.—(Lord Emmott.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 53, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 54 and 55 agreed to.

Clause 56:

LORD EMMOTT

This is a drafting Amendment.

Amendment moved— Clause 56, page 39, line 21, leave out ("such examination") and insert ("examination under this section").—(Lord Emmott.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 56, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 57:

LORD EMMOTT

The first Amendment is drafting.

Amendment moved— Clause 57, page 30, lines 36 and 37, leave out ("such a person shall attend for that purpose") and insert ("a person so appointed for that purpose is in this Act referred to as a winding engineman. (2) A winding engineman shall attend for the purpose aforesaid").—(Lord Emmott.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD EMMOTT

The point of the next Amendment is that as the Bill now stands it might bring the eight hours day provision as regards winding engine-men into force before the Home Office has had time to make the necessary regulations. That would be undesirable, and this Amendment gives power to postpone the date on which the provision is to come into force until the requisite regulations have been made.

Amendment moved— Page 40, line 1, after ("(2)") insert ("After the prescribed date and").—(Lord Emmott.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD EMMOTT

The next Amendment is consequential.

Amendment moved—

Page 40, lines 21 to 23, leave out subsection (4).—(Lord Emmott.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 57, as amended, agreed to.

LORD EMMOTT

I move to insert, after Clause 57, as consequential on the preceding Amendment, a new clause placing a restriction on the use of internal combustion engines in mines.

Amendment moved—

After Clause 57, insert as a new clause: (". Except with the permission of the Secretary of State no internal combustion engine shall be newly introduced underground in any coal mine after the passing of this Act").—(Lord Emmott.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 58 agreed to.

Clauses 59 to 66:

LORD EMMOTT

These are purely drafting Amendments.

Amendments moved—

Clause 59, page 40, line 37, to page 41, line 3, leave out subsection (2), and insert: ("(2) If at any time in any place in the mine the percentage of inflammable gas in the general body of the air in that place is found to exceed one and a quarter the electric current shall at once be cut oil from all cables and other electrical apparatus in that place, and shall not be switched on again as long as the percentage of inflammable gas exceeds that amount").

Clause 59, page 41, line 5, leave out ("by arbitration") and insert ("in the manner provided by this Act for settling disputes").

Clause 60, page 41, line 21, after ("workman") insert (' o for any explosives so provided").

Clause 66, page 44, line 17, after (".fireman") insert ("examiner")

Clause 66, page 44, line 28, after ("fireman") insert ("examiner").—(Lord Emmott.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clauses 59 to 66, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 67 agreed to.

Clause 68:

LORD EMMOTT

The reason for this Amendment is a mere drafting reason. It has been brought from another clause to this clause where it properly belongs. I have to ask leave to add, at the end of the new subsection (2), the words, "Provided that nothing in this section shall apply to any telephone or signalling wires or instruments as long as the conditions prescribed with reference to the installation and use of such wires and instruments are complied with, nor to any electric hand lamps of a type for the time being approved. "In South Wales some objection has been taken to the Bill as presented to your Lordships' House because it is thought that it would have the effect of stopping electric signalling in those return airways which are used for the haulage of coal, and they are not sure what the effect would be with regard to electric lamps. This Amendment is inserted to meet their objection.

Amendment moved— Clause 68, page 45, line 3, after ("chamber") insert: ("(2) In any mine, being a mine newly opened after the passing of this Act and not being a small mine, no inflammable material likely to cause danger from lire to the persons employed below ground shall be used in the construction of the pit head frame or of the roof, if any, over the pit head: Provided that nothing in this section shall apply to any telephone or signalling wires or instruments as long as the conditions prescribed with reference to the installation and use of such wires and instruments are complied with, nor to any electric hand lamps of a type for the time being approved. (3) No inflammable material likely to cause danger from fire to the persons employed below ground shall, after the passing of this Act, he used in the construction of ally engine-house below ground").—(Lord Emmott.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 68, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 69:

Amendments moved—

Clause 69, page 45, lines 6 and 7, leave out ("the pithead and in every") and insert ("every pithead")

Clause 69, page 45, line 8, after ("used") insert ("adequate")

Clause 69, page 45, lines 10 to 19, leave out subsections ("(2) and (3)").—(Lord Emmett.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 69, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 70:

LORD EMMOTT

This Amendment refers to the position where the barometer, thermometer, and hygrometer are to be placed in the mines. It stipulates where they are to be placed, and also inserts provisions for reading and recording the registers. This is often very essential to safety in mines.

Amendment moved— Clause 70, page 45, line 23, leave out from ("position") to the end of the line, and insert ("near a shaft or outlet both in the main intake airway and in the main return airway. The instruments required to be provided under this section shall be read at such intervals and by such persons as may be prescribed by general regulations, and the readings taken at the prescribed intervals shall be entered in a book to be kept at the mine for the purpose").—(Lord Emmott.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 70, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 71 agreed to.

Clauses 72 to 93:

LORD EMMOTT

So far as I can see, I can now move all the Amendments down to Clause 93. I stop there because the noble Earl, Lord Dunmore, has an Amendment on the Paper which comes in at that point.

Amendments moved—

Clause 72, page 45, line 32, leave out from ("have") to the end of line 33, and insert ("under his supervision at the same time more than one person who has not had such experience, or been so employed, as aforesaid").

Clause 74, page 46, line 5, leave out ("for") and insert ("by")

Clause 74, page 46, line 7, leave out ("and for preventing such") and insert ("to prevent that").

Clause 76, page 46, line13, after (":majority") insert ("ascertained by ballot")

Clause 76, page 46, lines 13 and 14, leave out ("ascertained by ballot")

Clause 76, page 46, line 27, after ("accommodation") insert. ("and facilities")

Clause 76, page 48, line 4, after ("majority") insert ("ascertained by ballot").

Clause 79, page 49, line 20, leave out from ("division") to (o' in") in line 23

Clause 79, page 49, line 24, after ("prescribed") insert ("and in the case of an accident causing loss of life or serious personal injury notice in such form and accompanied by such particulars as may be prescribed shall also be sent to the person (if any) nominated by the persons employed at the mine for the purpose of receiving notice under this section on their behalf").

Clause 81, page 50, line 22, after ("accident") insert ("and the Secretary of State may cause any such report to be made public at such time and in such manner as he may think lit").

Clause 82, page 31, line 22, after ("make") insert ("and the Secretary of State shall cause that report to be laid in full before both Houses of Parliament")

Clause 82, page 51, leave out Clause 83.

Clause 86, page 53, line 31, after the second ("of") insert ("or the Third Schedule to").

Clause 93, page 57, line 14, after ("but") insert ("a different period and"),—(Lord Emmott.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clauses 72 to 93, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 94 and 95 agreed to.

Clause 96:

Wages.

96.—(1) No wages shall be paid to any person employed in or about any mine at or within any licensed premises as defined by the Licensing (Consolidation) Act, 1910 or other house of entertainment, or any office, garden, or place belonging or contiguous thereto, or occupied therewith.

(2) The wages of all persons employed in or about any mine shall be paid weekly, if a majority of such persons So desire, and there shall be delivered to each such person a statement containing detailed particulars of how the amount paid to him is arrived at.

(3) Every person who contravenes or fails to comply with or permits any person to contravene or fail to comply with this section shall be guilty of an offence against this Act; and in the event of any such contravention or non-compliance by any person whomsoever, the owner, agent, and manager of the mine shall each be guilty of an offence against this Act, unless he proves that he had taken all reasonable means by publishing and to the best of his power enforcing the provisions of this section to prevent the contravention or non-compliance.

THE EARL OF DUNMORE

I move to leave out subsection (2), which is in no way relative to the Bill. This Bill is designed to promote the safety of those working in mines. The enforcement of weekly wages will have no effect in securing this desired result, but it is going to affect the relations between employers and employed. It is going to give to one of two contracting parties to a bargain the right of getting rid of their obligations and at the same time of retaining any consideration which they may have received from their employers under the original agreement. At the same time instead of promoting the safety of the workings in these mines and of the men, it will, I think, have the opposite result. In those parts of the country where wages are paid fortnightly the amount depends on the width and thickness of the seam, the width of the place worked, the accessibility and on many other factors as regards getting the coal. This entails a lot of work, which falls on certain officials. These officials at the present moment are also responsible for supervising the safety of the workings. The result will be that either these officials must be withdrawn from their more important duties of supervising the safety of the workings in order that every week they may measure the seams and make the difficult calculations on which wages are based, or else the number of officials must be increased, which would throw an extra, heavy burden on the industry. This subsection was not originally part of this Bill. It found its way into the Bill in Grand Committee. My own belief is that it was inserted ill the Bill against the wishes of His Majesty's Government. In any case this provision is strongly objected to all over the country. It is unnecessary, and it is going to upset many existing agreements and prevent new agreements being entered into between employers and employed.

Amendment moved— Clause 96, page 58, lines 16 to 20, leave out subsection (2).—(The Earl of Dunmore.)

LORD BELHAVEN AND STENTON

I wish to add a word to what the noble Earl who has just spoken has said, for fear it might be thought that wages would only be paid once a fortnight. At all events in that portion of Scotland in which I live, the wages of the miners are made up carefully every fortnight, but in the intermediate week a lump sum is paid in advance equal to what is considered likely to be the week's wages.

LORD EMMOTT

The Amendment which has been moved by the noble Earl raises a question which has been for many years, as your Lordships well know, a matter of great controversy. It is quite true, as the noble Earl has said, that this provision found its way into the Bill in the first instance in Grand Committee in another place, and it is quite true also that it was inserted in the Bill in Grand Committee against the wishes of the Government; but it is all the more significant that although the Government opposed the Amendment it should have been inserted. It shows how strongly the Grand Committee were in favour of this being put into the Bill. The reason the Government opposed it was not because of any question of principle, but because they wished to confine this Bill to provisions for the health and safety of the workers in mines, and they did not wish contentious subjects dealing with other matters in regard to mining introduced into the Bill. That is the only reason why the Government opposed it.

As this question has been raised, I think I must state with some little detail how the matter is dealt with now in different parts of the country. It is the custom at present to pay wages weekly throughout. Lancashire and Yorkshire. In the North of England and in the Midland arid Southern districts fortnightly pay has been customary for many years, and in some parts of the country, even if this provision is passed, fortnightly pay will continue to be the custom, as it meets the wishes both of employer and employed. This provision is optional to the miners. Unless the miners ask for weekly payment, weekly payment will not, be made. In Scotland in the majority of the collieries the men are paid fortnightly, but at seventy-eight collieries they are paid weekly. In South Wales wages are paid fortnightly in the majority of the collieries, but weekly at seventy-one.

This really is a South Wales question. That is the part of the country in which it has been a burning question. And I would beg your Lordships in regard to this matter to remember that it is a burning question there. If you were to strike this provision out of the Bill at this stage I am afraid your action would be very ill received in that part of the country, which has lately been a good deal disturbed and which might very easily be disturbed again. In South Wales this is a social question. It is said that it leads to miners running into debt every week which is not the pay week. In the week in which they do not receive wages they run into debt, and that introduces a pernicious system which I think it would be very desirable to get rid of. It is argued, I know, that this change would entail in many districts an increase of the staff under ground and an increase of the clerks above ground. I am informed that in regard to South Wales there certainly is some difficulty, and there would be extra expense in arranging for the weekly payment of wages, because the rate of pay is fixed not only on the coal gotten but on the timber set, the walls built, and other things which require a good deal of measurement. But I am told that the difficulty is more apparent than real, because the officials who do the work of measurement can carry it out while making inspection of the working places, and it is really doubtful whether any increase at all would be necessary in the underground staff.

It has been suggested that the difficulty might be met by introducing a system of "subbing"—that is, paying on account of the wages probably earned. But there are serious difficulties in putting that into practice, and it is felt that it would really intensify the dissatisfaction rather than satisfy the men. What is required is a weekly reckoning instead of a fortnightly reckoning, and I must appeal to the noble Earl opposite not to press his Amendment. The owners are not pressing for it as a body, and in another place, although the subject had been a matter of controversy up to the Report stage and was discussed on the Report stage, no Division was taken on it on the part of those who represent the owners. I am bound to tell your Lordships also that the Government cannot accept this Amendment, and in those circumstances I beg the noble Earl not to press it.

THE DUKE OF NORTHUMBERLAND

My Lords, I am afraid I must beg the noble Earl to press his Amendment, and, if necessary, to carry it to a Division. This Bill seems to me to he a very curious instance of slovenly legislation. It conies up to your Lordships' House and requires no fewer than 11 pages of Amendments by His Majesty's Government in order to make it intelligible, and I think that the account we have heard of the history of this clause shows that the slovenliness has not been confined merely to drafting amendments and verbal alterations. What is it the noble Lord who has just sat down has told us. He says that the Government are not in favour of introducing this clause into the Bill at all, but that when someone carried it in Grand Committee they then gave way. Why? The noble Lord has told us that the vast majority of the country is unaffected by it, or at least does not show any desire in favour of it. The whole of the North of England and the whole of Scotland have made no demand for it. The noble Lord says it is a burning question in South Wales. That may be an excellent reason for making an exception with regard to South Wales, and having a special clause relating to South Wales. I express no opinion whatever on that, because I do not feel qualified to do so, but I must say it is a little suspicious for His Majesty's Government to tell us that the reason they want to introduce this into South Wales is that they are afraid of more disturbances arising. In point of fact, the argument which is used in defence of this clause even in South Wales is not that it is in itself desirable to introduce it into this Bill—because His Majesty's Government never intended it to he introduced into the Bill—but that it is a little sop to enable the Government again to escape the performance of the duty they so ill-performed before when there were disturbances in South Wales of keeping these disturbances of trade under control. This is a matter in regard to which in the North of England the very strongest feeling is felt by the coal owners; and I do submit to your Lordships that whatever may be said for or against it in South Wales, of which I know nothing, it is a monstrous thing that such a provision should be forced upon the North of England and Scotland against their will, and where, according to the noble Lord's own confession, there is no demand for it. I trust that the noble Earl will carry this Amendment to a Division, and that your Lordships will support him.

THE EARL OF DUNMORE

I regret that I am unable to fall in with the views expressed by the noble Lord who introduced this Bill. The noble Duke has put before your Lordships my main reason, which is that what is applicable, perhaps, to South Wales, is not applicable to the whole country. The noble Lord went on to give another reason. He said the men run into debt. What really does happen at the present moment is that where men are paid on the last Saturday of the fortnight, 30 per cent. of those men do not turn up to work on the following Monday, and that leads to a decrease of output as regards one day in the fortnight. If this subsection is allowed to remain in, it is going to lead to double that decreased output, because it will mean that 30 per cent. of the men will not turn up on two days of the fortnight instead of on one day as at present. It may seem a very small matter that I am asking your Lordships to divide upon, but it is all part of a very large question. The coal industry has been very much hampered by recent legislation; the miners are well organised, and there really is no reason for this unnecessary interference between employers and employed. I regret that I shall have to push the matter further and ask your Lordships to divide upon the Amendment.

LORD EMMOTT

The noble Earl has said that because one day's work is lost on the Monday after the fortnight's wages are paid, therefore two days would be lost if the wages are paid weekly. I think the result would probably be quite different, and that it would be very much less likely that two days will be lost. When the men are paid fortnightly the effect obviously, from what the noble Earl has said, is that these men, having a large amount of money in their pockets make use of a considerable portion of it in a way that is not wise permanently, either to themselves or to the industry in which they are engaged, and it seems to me, as far as that goes, that that is an additional argument for paying wages weekly rather than fortnightly. The only other remark that I have to make is in reference to what the noble Duke said. I think it is a little unfair on his part, after the explanation I gave of the action of the Government in another place, to still harp upon the argument that the Government were opposed to this. I repeat that the Government were only opposed because they desired to keep out of this Bill certain contentious questions which the noble Viscount opposite, Lord Chilston, knows very well are apt to creep in whenever mining questions are considered.

VISCOUNT CHILSTON

Hear, hear.

LORD EMMOTT

One of those questions is check-weighing, and another eight hours, and this not being a question directly concerned either with the health or the safety of the workers the Government were anxious to keep it out of the Bill, simply to avoid too much time being spent in the consideration of it. I therefore do not think that that ought to be used as an argument in this matter. I do not feel that I can usefully occupy your Lordships' time by further arguing this question. I have stated the case. This really is a burning question in South Wales; it is a matter about which miners feel very deeply. This provision, which the noble Earl seeks to strike out of the Bill, is not resisted by the mine-owners as a whole, and in those circumstances, and having regard to the really difficult situation in South Wales now and recently, venture once more to make an appeal to your Lordships not to press this Amendment.

THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE

I am in great sympathy with the complaint which was made just now by the noble Duke on my right. I think we might well have urged that a Bill as lengthy and complicated as this is should not have been brought to us at a period of the session when it is physically impossible for us to go through it with the attention which it deserves. But your Lordships have in fact undertaken the examination of the Bill, and I am under the impression that most of your Lordships regard it as upon the whole a useful measure and desire that it should pass into law. Is it, then, really worth while for this House under these circumstances to insist upon an Amendment of this kind which deals with a point described by the noble Lord in charge of the Bill as a burning question—I think those are the words which he used. The clause is not objected to, we understand, by a great number of the coal owners, and it is not a compulsory clause; it is only to come into operation where a majority of the men desire it. In the case where the weekly payment of wages is unmistakably desired by a large majority of the workmen, is it worth while to resist that request? I do not profess to any expert knowledge of the question, but I am bound to say that, considering all the circumstances, I hesitate to associate myself with my noble friend, and if he goes to a Division I am afraid I shall not be able to vote with him.

On Question, Amendment negatived.

Clause 96 agreed to.

Clauses 97 to 124:

LORD EMMOTT

All the other Amendments on the Paper down to the end of the clauses of the Bill are drafting Amendments, and I move them en bloc.

Amendments moved—

Clause 97, page 59, lines 17 and IS, leave out ("in the district under his charge") and insert ("in the United Kingdom whether the mine is one to which this Act applies or not").

Clause 99, page 60, line 35, leave out ("determining") and insert ("settling").

Clause 100, page 61, line 10, leave out from ("year") to ("and") in line 19.

Clause 109, page 60, line 8, after ("Act") insert ("and the provisions of this Act relating to the obstruction of inspectors shall apply as if references to inspectors, included references to special inspectors").

Clause 119, page 68, line 15, leave out ("additions") and insert ("conditions"),

Clause 121, page 68, line 26, after the first ("regulations") insert ("or")

Clause 121, page 68, lines 26 and 27, leave out

Clause 121, page 68, line 28, after ("regulations") insert ("of the mine").

Clause 122, page 69, line 5, after ("returns") insert: Ventilating district" means any part of a seam having an independent intake airway commencing from a main intake airway and an independent return airway terminating at a main return airway: '"Office at the mine "means an office on the surface of the mine; "Small mine" means a mine in which the total number of persons employed below ground does not exceed thirty.

Clause 122, page 69, leave out Clause 123.

Clause 124, page 70, line 4, after ("he") insert: ("(i) neither is the holder of a first or second class certificate of competency under this Act, nor is twenty-five years of age or upwards and has had at least five years practical experience underground in a mine; or (ii)").—(Lord Emmott.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clauses 97 to 124, as amended, agreed to.

Remaining clauses agreed to.

First Schedule:

Amendment moved— First Schedule, page 74, in heading of the table, leave out ("1911") and insert ("19").—(Lord Emmott.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF DUNMORE moved to omit from the return to be submitted to the Home Office the requirement to show the "value at the pit mouth." The noble Earl said: The Amendment which I now move I am afraid is in Opposition to the next Amendments to be moved by the noble Lord in charge of this Bill. These returns of the value of the coal at the pit mouth are an entirely new departure. I cannot conceive with what object the Home Office are demanding this extra information. It can do no good, and it can do a great deal of harm. Wages at present are based on the selling value of coal. Very careful calculations are made by skilled accountants and made with extreme accuracy at present, and this new demand which the Government are calling for will probably not be made up with the same care and the same accuracy as the accounts are made up on which the wages are adjusted. This return to the Government has got to be made before the 21st of January, so that there is really very little time in which to do it. But the main point is that this is a safety Bill; it is promoted with a view of securing the safety of the people who work in these mines, and I should like to know for what reason this new return is being asked. Is it being asked for with any ulterior motive as regards the further taxation of an already over-burdened industry? It all seems part of the unnecessary interference by Parliament between employers and employed, and I protest against all these things being put into a Bill which is nominally a Bill to secure the safety of the people working in the mines. I must ask the noble Lord for some reason for putting forward this new departure I see he is so enamoured of it that he is going to go three better and ask for these other returns. This has never been done before, and there can be no reason for it, unless, as I say, there is some ulterior motive in the minds of the Government.

Amendment moved— First Schedule, Part A, page 75, leave out ("value at the pit mouth").—(The Earl of Dunmore.)

LORD EMMOTT

The noble Lord has made reference to some Amendments in my name which appear to be directly opposite to what he desires. That is perfectly true, but my Amendments are practically consequential. If the value of coal is to be given at the pit mouth there is no reason why the value of these other" minerals should not also be given. The noble Earl raises a question of principle. He objects altogether to the request to give this information. With regard to the time when the information must be given, the Act does not come into force until July, and therefore there will be no hurry about providing these statistics, by the 21st of January next. That is a minor point which I think we can dismiss from our consideration. The reason these statistics are required by the Government is that every Committee and Commission which has dealt with mining statistics for many years past has recommended that this change should be made. It is quite true that one of those was a Mining Royalties Commission. I admit that. But what they say about it is this— We venture to suggest that the Government should consider the advisability of reorganising and extending the Department of Mines, and that to such Department should be committed the duty of obtaining and publishing accurate information with regard to the actual price of coal at the pit's mouth. That Commission reported in 1893. In view of that recommendation Mr. Asquith, who at that time was Home Secretary, appointed a Departmental Committee to consider the whole question of mining statistics, and as a result of their Report the statistics were reorganised to the form in which they are now issued. They recommended that the owners should be required by Statute to state the average price of coal at the pit's mouth. No opportunity occurred of giving effect to these recommendations of the Committee, and in 1905 the Royal Commission on Coal Supplies referred to the inadequacy of mining statistics and stated that had the suggestions of the Departmental Committee been carried out it would have greatly assisted their inquiries. Certain statistics are published, as we know, but the information is incomplete, and the passing of the Census of Production Act has made the case for the publication of these statistics very much stronger. Under that Act the Board of Trade will collect, at intervals of probably not less than five years, information on this very point, and I think in the general interests of the country it is important that these statistics, instead of being obtained every five years, should be obtained every year. I repeat that this precise course has been recommended by every Commission and Committee that has dealt, with mining statistics during the last twenty years, and that is the reason why His Majesty's Government ask that this should remain in this Bill.

THE EARL OF DUNMORE

What this is going to lead to is that if there is any discrepancy between the figures, which doubtless there may be, that are returned to the Home Office and the figures pre- sented by the accountants on which the manager of the mine bases the wages of the men, it will tend to promote an idea in the minds of the men that their employers have deliberately faked the figures, if may use the expression, in order to lower their wages. There have been enough difficulties between employers and employed in the past without creating fresh embarrassments. I am not going to trouble your Lordships by asking you to divide on this point, but I do protest against all this unnecessary legislation finding its way into this Bill. As far as I can see, the only argument which the noble Lord used was that the Government officials have intimated that it would be wise to have these returns. It seems to me that this vast number of Government officials, of whom there has been such a tremendous increase during the administration of His Majesty's Government, have not enough to do, and that these returns have been called for merely with a view of giving them some employment. However, I beg leave, with your Lordships' permission, to withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendments moved—

First Schedule, page 75, under ("Fireclay") insert:

("Amount | Value at the pit mouth")

First Schedule, page 75, under ("(Raw)") insert:

("Amount | Value at the pit mouth")

First Schedule, page 75, under ("Shale") insert:

("Amount | Value at the pit mouth")

First Schedule, page 75, in the seventh column,

leave out ("Tons") and insert:

("Amount | Value at the pit mouth")

First Schedule, page 76, last line but one,

leave out ("for") and insert ("from")

First Schedule, page 77, fourth column in Table I, leave out ("by permitted igniter fuse")

First Schedule, page 77, fifth column in Table I, leave out ("other")

First Schedule, page 77, after ("(2) With fuze") insert ("(3) Otherwise")

First Schedule, page 77, page 78, in the heading to Part D, leave out ("Form of Annual Return giving the")

First Schedule, page 77, leave out ("1. Name of Mine County") and leave out ("2. Name and Postal Address of Owner").—(Lord Emmott.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

First Schedule, as amended, agreed to.

Second Schedule agreed to.

Third Schedule:

Amendments moved—

Third Schedule, page 82, line 25, leave out from ("schedule") to ("shall") in line 26.

Third Schedule, page 82, line 27, leave out ("any inspector of the mine or").—(Lord Emmott.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Third Schedule, as amended, agreed to.

Remaining Schedule agreed to.

The Report of Amendments to be received To-morrow, and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 244.)