SMALL LANDHOLDERS (SCOTLAND) BILL.

HL Deb 13 December 1911 vol 10 cc923-62

Amendments reported (according to Order).

Clause 3:

Constitution of Scottish Land Court.

3.—(1) It shall be lawful for His Majesty, on t he recommendation of the Secretary for Scotland, at any time after the commencement of this Act, and from time to time as vacancies occur, to appoint not more than five persons, to be designated the Scottish Land Court this Act referred to as the Land Court) and to appoint one of such persons to be Chairman of the Court.

(2) The Chairman shall be a person who at the date of his appointment shall be an advocate of the Scottish bar of not less than ten years' standing.

(3) One of the said persons shall be a person who can speak the Gaelic language.

(4) It shall be lawful for the Secretary for Scotland to remove any member of the Land Court for inability or misbehaviour. Every order of removal shall state the reasons for which it is made and no such order shall come into operation until it has lain before both Houses of Parliament for not less than thirty days while Parliament is sitting, nor if either House passes a resolution objecting to it.

(5) If and when the Chairman is temporarily unable to attend, or his office is vacant, the Secretary for Scotland may appoint to act temporarily in his place any person having the qualification required for holding the office of Chairman and the person so appointed shall, during such inability or vacancy, have the same powers and perform the same duties as if he were the Chairman.

(6) The Secretary four Scotland shall front time to time appoint a fit person to act as principal clerk to the Land Court.

(7) The Land Court may appoint or employ such assessors, surveyors, law agents, valuers, clerks, messengers, and other persons required for the due performance of their duties, as the Treasury, on the recommendation of the Secretary for Scotland, may sanction.

(8) Any Crofters Commissioner or officer of the Crofters Commission in office at the commencement of this Act, who may not be appointed a member or an officer of the Land Court, shall receive such compensation as the Treasury may determine.

(9) There shall be paid to the Chairman of the Land Court a salary not exceeding two thousand pounds a year, and to each of the other members a salary not exceeding twelve hundred pounds a year, and such salaries shall be charged on and paid out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom, or the growing produce thereof. The Chairman shall have the same right to a retiring annuity proportionate to his salary, subject to the like conditions and incidents as if he had been appointed a judge of the Court of Session, and every such annuity shall be charged and paid as aforesaid.

(10) There shall be paid to each of the other persons appointed or employed under this section such salary or remuneration as the Treasury may sanction; and all such salaries and remuneration and the expenses of the Land Court incurred in the execution of their ditties, to such amount as may be sanctioned by the Treasury, shall be paid out of moneys provided by Parliament.

(11) The Land Court shall submit such estimates and keep such accounts of their receipts and expenditure, and their accounts shall be audited in accordance with such regulations, as the Treasury may direct.

(12) It shall be lawful for the Land Court from time to time to make rules for conducting the business of the Court.

THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (LORD PENTLAND) formally moved to amend subsection (1), by leaving out "at any time after" and inserting "as from."

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 2, leave out ("at any time after") and insert ("as from").—(Lord Pentland.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD PENTLAND moved to add, at o the end of subsection (2), the words in his Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 10, after ("standing") insert ("and shall forthwith on his appointment have the same rank and tenure of office as if he had been appointed a Judge of the Court of Session").—(Lord Pentland.)

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH

I think, after the discussion on this point the other night, that the House is entitled to some explanation from the noble Lord

LORD PENTLAND

The noble Lord raised this point in Committee, and I promised to do my best to consider it and look up the precedents. I have done that, and I find that the nearest precedent is the Act to which I referred—Section 41 of the Irish Act of 1881. That Act alludes to rank and tenure, salary and pension, and retiring allowance, I think it is called. I have also considered the noble Lord's criticism on the special question of rank. It is quite true, as he urged, that precedence is settled, not necessarily by Act of Parliament, but by His Majesty, and that, of course, would be the intention. We should follow any necessary change in the order of precedence which may be due to the creation of this new office. At the same time it did not seem to be sufficiently clear with the word "rank" omitted from this Bill, and therefore I have ventured to move it in so that if the House, on consideration, is willing to retain it, it can be retained.

VISCOUNT ST. ALDWYN

Is the noble Lord prepared to state the name of the Chairman?

LORD PENTLAND

Yes; but perhaps it would be convenient to finish this discussion first.

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH

The noble Lord is not following the precedent which he himself quoted. He is giving the Chairman the rank and tenure of a Judge of the Court of Session.

LORD PENTLAND

But not the salary and pension. It is quite true that we do not give him the salary, but if the noble Lord will look at the fifth line on page four of the Bill he will see that he is given a retiring annuity proportionate to his salary subject to the like conditions and incidents as if he had been appointed a Judge of the Court of Session. His salary will be calculated according to the same scale.

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH

If these changes were to have been made at all, they ought to have been made in the other House of Parliament; but I shall not press the matter to a division.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD PENTLAND

I move, after "Court" in subsection (4), to insert "other than the Chairman." Perhaps it would be convenient here that I should communicate to the House the name of the gentleman to whom we propose to offer the appointment of Chairman of this Land Court. His name is Mr. Neil Kennedy. I will give the House the particulars of his career. He was called to the Bar in the year 1877, and, after filling various positions, including that of Lecturer on Private International Law in Edinburgh University, in the year 1898, and the Professorship of Civil and Scots Law in the University of Aberdeen from the year 1901 to the year 1907, was appointed in the year 1907 a member of the Royal Commission on the Registration of Titles, and also in that same year he was appointed Sheriff of Renfrew and Bute. In 1908, on the death of Sir David Brand, he was appointed Chairman of the Crofters Commission. I am informed, and I think I can rely on the information placed before me, that Mr. Kennedy is distinguished for his independence of mind, his wide learning, and his legal eminence. He is second to nobody in his profession in his acquaintance with this particular branch of law, and his experience of nearly four years as Chairman of the Crofters Commission has given him a practical knowledge of a very unique description. His work as Chairman of the Crofters Commission has not only given general satisfaction, but has, I think, enhanced his reputation in his profession. He is a man whose standing in his profession would justify—and whom, I think, his professional brethren would regard of the necessary standing and eminence—his appointment to the position even of a Judge of the Court of Session, the attributes of which office we have just been considering. For these reasons, the Government consider that he is pre-eminently the man fitted to discharge successfully the duties of this new office, bearing in mind not only his personal qualities but the status and dignity of the Court over which he will preside. I may mention that in the year 1895 Mr. Kennedy contested Inverness-shire in the Liberal interest, but, as noble Lords from Scotland well know, most advocates of standing on one side or the other of politics go through the same experience.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 14, after ("Court") insert ("(other than the Chairman)").—(Lord Pentland.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 4:

Constitution of Board of Agriculture for Scotland.

4.—(1) It shall be lawful for His Majesty on the recommendation of the President of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries, at any time after the commencement of this Act, and from time to time as vacancies occur, to appoint not more than three persons to be designated the Scottish Department of Agriculture for Scotland (in this Act referred to as the Department) and to appoint one of such persons to be Chairman of the Department. Any act or thing required or authorised to be done by the Department may be done by any one or more of the members thereof as the President may from time to time direct.

(2) The Department shall be charged with the general duty of promoting the interests of agriculture, forestry, and other rural industries in Scotland, and shall also exercise and perform any powers and duties which are or may be conferred on or transferred to them under the provisions of this Act. In the discharge of their duties they shall comply with such instructions or regulations as may from time to time be issued by the President, and they shall submit an annual report of their proceedings to him, which report shall be laid before both Houses of Parliament.

(3) The Department may undertake the collection and preparation of statistics relating to agriculture, forestry, and other rural industries, and may make or aid in making such inquiries, experiments, and research, and collect or aid in collecting such information relating thereto as they think advisable.

(4) It shall be the duty of the Department to promote, aid, and develop instruction in agriculture, forestry, and other rural industries.

(5) The Department shall take such steps as they think proper for the promotion and development of agricultural organisation and co-operation.

(6) Without prejudice to the provisions of the immediately preceding subsections, such one of the members of the Department as the President shall from time to time appoint shall be designated the Commissioner for Small Holdings and shall be specially charged with the duties hereinafter committed to him.

(7) The President shall from time to time appoint a fit person to act as secretary to the Board.

(8) The members of the Department shall hold office during His Majesty's pleasure. The Department may, subject to the approval of the President, appoint or employ such officers, clerks, and other persons as the Treasury may sanction.

(9) The members of the Department and other persons appointed or employed under this section shall respectively receive such salary or remuneration as the Treasury may sanction, and all such salaries or remuneration and the expenses of the Department incurred in the execution of their duties, to such amount as may be sanctioned by the Treasury, shall be paid out of moneys provided by Parliament.

(10) The Department shall submit such estimates and keep such accounts of their receipts and expenditure, and their accounts shall be audited in accordance with such regulations as the Treasury may direct.

(11) It shall the lawful for the President from time to time to time by order under his hand—

1. (a) To direct that from and after the date fixed by the order such powers and duties of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries exercisable in or in relation to Scotland as may with the consent of the Treasury be specified in the order, shall be transferred to the-Board, either unconditionally or subject to such conditions as may with the like consent be prescribed in the order; and
2. (b) To direct that from and after the (late fixed-by the order such powers and duties under the Congested Districts (Scotland) Act, 1897, as may, with the consent of the Treasury, be specified in the order, shall (not being powers for the purchase of land) be exercised and performed throughout Scotland as well as in congested parishes or districts thereof, or made applicable, with any necessary adaptations, to the purposes of the Landholders Acts.

(12) Before any such order is made, the draft thereof shall be laid before each House of Parliament for not less than two months while Parliament is sitting, and if either House, before the expiration of such period of two months, presents an address to His Majesty against the draft or any part thereof, no further proceedings shall be taken thereon, without prejudice to the making of any new draft order.

(13) An order under this section may provide for all matters which appear to the President necessary or proper for giving full effect to the order, or to a previous order, including, with the consent of the Treasury, matters relating to the adjustment and disposal of any property, debts, and liabilities which may be affected thereby, or to the employment of any officers who may be transferred and the regulation of their duties.

(14) An order duly made under this section shall take effect as if it were enacted in this Act.

LORD PENTLAND moved to omit from the beginning of the clause the words "President of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries," and to insert "Secretary for Scotland."

Amendment moved— Page 4, line 20, leave out ("President of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries") and insert ("Secretary for Scotland").—(Lord Pentland.)

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH

This, again, is a reversal of what was done on a previous stage of the Bill in this House, and I think, if there has been any general arrangement made, we are entitled to some sort of statement with regard to it, especially as this matter bears very strongly on the important question of the administration of the Contagious Diseases (Animals) Act. I think the noble Lord, before he asks us to go back on a decision already come to, should give us some reason for it.

LORD PENTLAND

Your Lordships will remember the discussion which we had upon this subject on the Committee stage of the Bill, and it would not, I think, be agreeable, or to your convenience, that I should repeat the general arguments I then urged in favour of the course which the Government have proposed in this matter. I then had the honour of stating plainly to the House that the Government consider this vital to the Bill—that is to say, the retention of their scheme of establishing a separate Board of Agriculture in Scotland for the purposes named in the Bill. Objection was taken to that course, and your Lordships inserted a series of Amendments which entirely destroyed the machinery of the Bill on the one hand, and on the other failed to insert in the Bill any co-ordinated scheme in its place. Under these circumstances I felt that it would only be right to place this Amendment upon the Paper so that the House might have an opportunity of reconsidering their attitude, especially in the light of what I am now prepared to state in regard to the most controversial part of the proposals—namely, the administration of the Contagious Diseases (Animals) Act. Your Lordships will recollect that a debate took place especially on that point, that I then stated in regard to that subject that I recognised the strength of opinion of this House in favour of the retention of that administration by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries, and that I also undertook to represent to my colleagues the opinion which had been expressed here in that sense. Since then I have discharged those undertakings; and while the Government still recognise the force of the arguments on account of which they inserted in the Bill this provision for the transfer of the administration of the Contagious Diseases (Animals) Act to Scotland—while the reasons seem to us as cogent as they ever were for this transfer, still we recognise that this House is strongly against such a proposal, and therefore I shall not oppose the retention of those particular powers by the Board in London. I hope—and I think the discussion which took place last week affords some grounds for hoping—that as these administrative powers with regard to diseases of animals are to be retained in London, your Lordships may be agreeable to accept the remainder of the proposals of the Government in regard to the setting up of a separate Board of Agriculture in Scotland.

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH

On that, I must ask this question before deciding whether or not to press our opposition to a Division. Are we to understand that the administration of the Contagious Diseases (Animals) Act will be retained in the power of the Board of Agriculture in London, and will not be removable except by an amending Statute—by all Act of Parliament?

LORD PENTLAND

That is so.

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH

And that there will be no proposal to transfer the powers either by Orders in Council or in any other way except by an amending statutory enactment?

LORD PENTLAND

That is clear on the face of the proposals, and further than that I propose not to oppose the Amendment which is to be moved by my noble friend Lord Burghclere on this point, which makes it clear that except by Parliamentary enactment such a transfer cannot take place.

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH

The noble Lord did not say that he was going to accept the Amendment, and even now he does not say whether he is going to support it with all the force of the Government in another place. I think we must clearly understand where we are. So far as I am concerned—I say it deliberately, having carefully thought it over—before I personally will consent to the transfer of the administration of the Contagious Diseases (Animals) Act to any authority other than the Imperial authority, I would prefer to lose the Bill; and I want to know whether, if we give way now, we are likely to be told afterwards that we have given way once and for all and have sunk our opinions on this important matter. I frankly say to the noble Lord that if he had not met us thus far I should have opposed the Amendment which he is now making, and so kept the whole administration of agriculture under the Board of Agriculture in London. I still think that best in the interests of agriculture, not only of Scotland but of the whole of Great Britain. The noble Lord said he observed that the House had formed a strong opinion on this matter. I beg him to note that this House is of that opinion, not from any selfish reason of its own, but because the members of the House believe that in that they are voicing the opinions of the agricultural community of Scotland. There is no sort of proof that has been given to the contrary.

I notice that the noble Lord received a deputation the other day from an important society in the South-west of Scotland who had passed a resolution agreeing not to the proposal in the Bill, but to the proposal for a separate Department of Agriculture with a Minister responsible for it. A correspondent has supplied me with a little information about that resolution. It was passed at an annual meeting of the association, but on the notice paper calling the meeting there was not given the slightest indication that any such resolution was to be proposed, so that those who were opposed to it in the society not only were ignorant of the fact that such a resolution was going to be proposed, but they had not the opportunity of expressing their opinions about it. What value a resolution passed under those circumstances can be I am at a loss to imagine. I hold in my hand a copy of the notice calling the meeting, and there is no doubt whatever that upon it there is no indication of any kind that such a resolution was going to be proposed.

I deeply regret that for the first time the interests of agriculture in Scotland are to be separated from those in England. Like the noble Lord, I am not going over the reasons which I gave for holding that opinion. We do not want a revised debate on this occasion. I only say that my opinions on the merits of the question are absolutely unchanged, and if I could have enforced my view I should have endeavoured to do it. The noble Lord knows that why it cannot be done is that by the structure of the Bill and its financial provisions the whole of the money left in the hands of the Congested Districts Board is transferred to the new Board of Agriculture—I do not know whether we have any power over that or not—and I dare say questions of privilege might be raised in another place if we attempted to deal with it. So far as I am concerned, I think that if there had been any intention at all of meeting our views the matter could have been adjusted in another place. The noble Lord has said over and over again that in his opinion this matter is vital to the Bill, and therefore we cannot expect him to give us any assistance.

I say again that, so far as I am personally concerned, if it had been intended to do anything to pave the way for transferring the administration of the Contagious Diseases (Animals) Act to this new Department which is being established, I should have preferred to lose the Bill. I repeat that this is contrary to the wish of all the best agricultural opinion in Scotland. I believe it to be contrary to their interest, and although it is not altogether wise to prophesy until you know, I prophesy with the utmost confidence that in the course of a very few years the best agricultural opinion in Scotland will continue deeply to regret this change. I can only record my opinion; but having the assurance of the noble Lord that the administration of the Contagious Diseases (Animals) Act is to be left with the existing Department and only to be transferable by actual legislation, I have nothing more to say, and I shall not oppose the Amendment which the noble Lord now moves.

LORD BURGHCLERE

I ventured on a previous occasion to trouble your Lordships at such considerable length on the question of the transference of these powers to a Scottish Board of Agriculture that if I were to repeat my arguments now it would simply be an outrage upon the House. I merely rise to say that I have heard with the deepest satisfaction the statement of my noble friend the Secretary for Scotland. I gather from his remarks that he is prepared to accept the Amendment which stands in my name to his own Amendment, and that the Government are also prepared to accept that Amendment when it goes to the Lower House of Parliament. Under these circumstances I rejoice very much that my noble friend opposite has withdrawn his opposition, and I am quite certain that not only agriculturists in Scotland but in England also will rejoice to hear the decision of the Government on this question. I would say that I myself, sitting as I do on this side of the House and anxious as I am to support my noble friend with his Bill, agree with the weighty words used by my noble friend Lord Balfour to-day, and those used the other day by the noble Viscount, Lord St. Aldwyn; and if the Government had insisted upon transferring these powers to a Scottish Board of Agriculture and doing away with the central control which has done so much for agriculture in Great Britain, I for my part would have opposed it even if it brought about the destruction of the Bill.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

Lord Balfour has announced his intention not to oppose this Amendment, and I think it only right that I should point out that this concession on his part is a very great concession, and that it proceeds not only from him but from this side of the House generally. The noble Lord the Secretary for Scotland announced to us the other Clay, and he has repeated it to-night, that he regarded this matter as vital to the Bill. Your Lordships have given way upon it, and I merely wish to impress upon him that this is a very great concession on our part, because there are other matters which are equally vital to the Bill and which very likely will come up hereafter, and I would ask the noble Lord to keep this in his mind when those matters come to be dealt with.

THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE

I merely desire to say that I entirely agree in principle with the proposal which was submitted to the House by my noble friend Lord Balfour of Burleigh. I believe the course which he recommended was the proper and logical course to take. In my view, the administration of the whole of the agriculture of the United Kingdom ought properly to be left under the Board of Agriculture in this city. To my mind the attempt to distinguish in this way between Scottish agriculture and British agriculture is most unwise and likely to involve the country in very serious risks. But it has been made clear to us that there is no prospect of obtaining from His Majesty's Government the kind of settlement that we desire. I am therefore grateful to them for having met us at any rate to the extent of dealing in a proper manner with the question of the administration of the Contagious Diseases (Animals) Act. By reserving that and making that a matter of national concern and not purely of local concern, something, at any rate, has been done to save the agricultural community from a risk which might have led to the most fatal results.

VISCOUNT GALWAY

As this is a matter which affects England also, I think it would be more satisfactory to this House if we could have an assurance from the noble Lord that if the Amendment referred to is accepted the Government will take care that it is not changed or reversed in another place.

LORD PENTLAND

That, is so; the Government will stand by its decision, of course.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD PENTLAND then moved the first series of Amendments consequential upon the Amendment just agreed to.

Amendments moved—

Page 4, line 21, leave out ("at any time after") and insert ("as from")

Page 4, line 23, leave out ("Scottish Department") and insert ("Board")

Page 4, lines 24 and 25, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")

Page 4, line 26, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")

Page 4, line 27, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")

Page 4, line 28, leave out ("President") and insert ("Secretary for Scotland")

Page 4, line 29, after ("direct") insert ("Provided that all deeds, writs, and documents to be signed or executed by or on behalf of the Board may be signed or executed by any one of the members thereof and the secretary to the Board. The Board may sue or be sued under the designation aforesaid, and service on them of all legal processes and notices shall be effected by service on their secretary").

Page 4, line 30, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")

Page 4, line 37, leave out ("President") and insert ("Secretary for Scotland")

Page 4, line 40, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board").

Page 5, line 4, leave out ("Department") and insert"(Board")

Page 5, line 7, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")

Page 5, lines 11 and 12, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")

Page 5, line 12, leave out ("President") and insert ("Secretary for Scotland")

Page 5, line 16, leave out ("President") and insert ("Secretary for Scotland")

Page 5, line 18, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")

Page 5, line 19, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")

Page 5, line 20, leave out ("President") and insert ("Secretary for Scotland")

Page 5, line 22, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")

Page 5, line 26, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")

Page 5, line 29, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")

Page 5, line 33, leave out ("President") and insert ("Secretary for Scotland").—(Lord Pentland.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Amendment moved—

Page 5, line 33, to end of line 11 on page 6 leave out subsection (11) and insert the following new subsections: ("(11) The power sand duties of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries exercisable in or in relation to Scotland under the enactments specified in the First Schedule to this Act or under any local Act, shall be transferred to the Board, or in the case of the powers and duties of any or offer, to such member or officer of the Board as the Board nominate for the purpose. (12) Subject as hereinafter provided, it shall be lawful for His Majesty in Council by Order made after consultation with the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries and the Secretary for Scotland and with the consent of the Treasury, to transfer to the Board any powers and Duties of the Board of Apiculture and Fisheries exercisable in or in relation to Scotland which are not transferred by this Act and to make any adjustment consequential on any transfer by or under this section; and to provide for any matter necessary or proper for giving full effect to any such transfer".)—(Lord Pentland.)

VISCOUNT ST. ALDWYN

Subsection (12) of the clause will stand, I suppose?

LORD PENTLAND

Yes. Subsection (12) stands, but becomes another number.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Amendment moved—

Page 6, lines 19 to 27, leave out subsections (13) and (14) and insert the following new subsection: ("(14) Nothing in this section shall transfer, or authorise the transfer of any powers or duties under the Survey Act, 1870".)—(Lord Pentland.)

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

Will the noble Lord tell me what is the reason for leaving out subsection (13)?

LORD PENTLAND

The noble Earl will see that that is all right.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD BURGHCLERE

We now come to the Amendment which was referred to at an earlier part of the evening. I propose to acid, at the end of the new subsection which my noble friend has just inserted in the Bill, the words" or any powers or duties exercisable under the Diseases of Animals Act, 1894, or any enactment amending or extending the same. "If those words are added to the Bill I am informed, and my opinion is confirmed by the noble Lord the Secretary for Scotland, that it will not be possible for the Secretary for Scotland or the Government of the day to transfer under this Bill, as was originally proposed, the administration of the Contagious Diseases of Animals Act to a separate Board in Scotland, and that no such step can be taken by them afterwards except by legislation. I think my Amendment makes the position we arrived at in Committee stage absolutely safe, and I am certain that when the agriculturists of England and Scotland become aware of what the Government have done they will be very thankful for the concession which has been made. I have not the slightest doubt myself, and I never had any doubt, that if the Bill stood as it was originally introduced and these powers had been transferred to a Scottish Board—if the control of these important Acts were taken away from the central authority at present established in London, I am certain it would have been a great disadvantage to our agriculturists and especially our breeders of stock. It is the success of the Central Board in Great Britain which has given confidence to stock breeders all over the country. It has done more than that; it has given confidence in those foreign countries to which at the present moment we export our prize cattle. It is not a very large export trade, but it is an increasing one especially to Argentina, and I am quite certain that if this proposition had been retained in the Bill as it originally stood it would have shaken the confidence of those cattle dealers in foreign ports who buy our cattle, and would have dealt a very serious blow and proved a hindrance to our export trade. I cannot sit down without saying how grateful I am to my noble friend and the Government for their acceptance of this Amendment, which I am certain will be very acceptable to all agriculturists in Scotland.

Amendment moved—

After ("1870") in the new subsection (14), insert ("or any powers or duties exercisable under the Diseases of Animals Act, 1894, or any enactment amending or extending the same").—(Lord Burghclere.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 5:

Amendment moved— Page 6, line 29, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board").—(Lord Pentland.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to

Clause 6:

Amendments moved—

Page 7, line 14, leave out ("Department") and insert ('"Board")

Page 7, line 16, leave out ("President") and insert.("Secretary for Scotland").—(Lord Pentland.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 7:

Amendments moved—

Page 7, line 24, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")

Page 7, line 41, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board").

Page 8, line 13, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")

Page 8, line 20, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")

Page 8, line 20, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")

Page 8, line 29, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")

Page 8, line 34, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board").

Page 9, lines 31 and 32, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board").

Page 10, lines 10 and 11, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")

Page 10, line 19, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")

Page 10, line 21, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board").—(Lord Pentland.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

LORD PENTLAND had an Amendment on subsection (16)— (16) Except by agreement, a new holder shall not be registered—

1. (a) in respect of any land being or forming part of a farm not exceeding one hundred and fifty acres or if exceeding one hundred and fifty acres or of an annual value as entered in the valuation roll not exceeding eighty pounds occupied by a person who has no personal interest in any other farm: Provided that nothing herein contained shall operate to prevent the registration otherwise than by agreement of two or more new holders in respect of the whole of such farm, not being a farm wholly or mainly pastoral, where no other land is available in the neighbourhood of any existing village or township; or
2. (b) in respect of any land being or forming part of a farm occupied subject to a lease which was in force at Whitsunday nineteen hundred and eleven, so long as the lease remains in force.

The noble Lord moved to omit from paragraph (a) the words "or if exceeding one hundred and fifty acres or of an annual value as entered in the valuation roll not exceeding eighty pounds occupied by a person who has no personal interest in any other farm," and to insert the words in his Amendment. He said: This is really carrying out what we agreed to in Committee, and it has, I believe, the approval of the noble Lord, Lord Clinton, at whose instance the Amendment was put in. Except for the words "but is wholly or mainly pastoral," I think it carries out what we agreed.

Amendment moved— Page 10, line 28, leave out from ("acres") to ("provided") in line. 32, and insert ("occupied by a person who has no personal interest in any other farm, or in the case of a farm so occupied which exceeds one hundred and fifty acres but is wholly or mainly pastoral, not exceeding an annual value as entered in the valuation roll of eighty pounds").—(Lord Pentland.)

LORD CLINTON

I should like to remind your Lordships that when I first moved my Amendment in Committee I asked for something more than the noble Lord finally agreed to accept. I asked that farms should be protected which exceeded 150 acres and which did not exceed an annual value of £100. On the request of the noble Lord the Secretary for Scotland I agreed to his suggestion that I should alter the £100 to £80 of I annual value. Now, however, I am asked to accept some further whittling down, and to accept the definition of a farm as one that is "wholly or mainly pastoral." I am not going to raise any objection to it, because, as the noble Lord perfectly rightly says, it meets the main point with regard to these farms that have a small amount of arable land and a considerable amount of pasture, the farm consequently being of a large acreage but held at a low rental. The Amendment even as altered still meets my point, and I do not, therefore, propose to take objection to what the noble Lord proposes.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Amendments moved—

Page 11, line 13, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")

Page 11, line 15, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board").—(Lord Pentland.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 8:

Amendments moved—

Page 11, line 22, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")

Page 11, line 25, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")

Page 11, line 28, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")

Page 11, line 29, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")

Page 11, line 37, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board").

Page 12, line 6, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")

Page 12, lines 8 and 9, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board").—(Lord Pentland.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 9:

Amendment moved— Page 12, line 14, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board").—(Lord Pentland.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 10:

Amendment moved— Page 13, line 8, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board").—(Lord Pentland.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 15:

Registration.

15.—(1) The procedure in connection with applications for registration under this Act shall be regulated as may be prescribed in rules of the Land Court.

(2) Registration under this Act shall be constituted by an order of the Land Court granting registration, duly recorded, with the application on which it proceeds, in the Landholders' Holdings Book.

LORD PENTLAND

I move, after the word "registration" in subsection (1), to insert "of new holders." This is really precautionary in order to save misunderstanding. The registration only applies to new holders.

Amendment moved— Page 14, line 24, after ("registration") insert ("of new holders").—(Lord Pentland.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 16:

Amendments moved—

Page 14, line 38, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board").

Page 15, line 6, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")

Page 15, line 13, after ("registration") insert ("otherwise than by agreement").—(Lord Pentland.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 17:

Amendments moved—

Page 15, line 23, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")

Page 15, line 27, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")

Page 15, line 31, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")

Page 15, line 38, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board").

Page 16, line 2, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board").—(Lord Pentland.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 18:

Amendments moved—

Page 16, line 15, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")

Page 16, line 16, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")

Page 16, line 18, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board ").—(Lord Pentland.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 19:

Declaration of law as to resumption of holdings.

19. Without prejudice to the generality of the power to authorise resumption by the landlord for some reasonable purpose having relation to the good of the holding or of the estate, conferred by section two of the Act of 1886, the feuing of land, or the occupation by a landlord for the purpose of personally residing thereon of a holding, being his only landed estate, shall respectively be deemed a reasonable purpose as aforesaid.

LORD PENTLAND

The purpose of this Amendment is really explained by the words themselves. It is desirable that we should safeguard ancient monuments and objects of historical or archæological interest from destruction or injury. I move to insert these words after the words "being his only landed estate."

Amendment moved— Page 16, line 25, after ("estate") insert ("or the protection of an ancient monument or other object of historical or archæological interest from destruction or injury").—(Lord Pentland.)

LOED BURGHCLERE

As I am the Chairman of the Royal Commission on Ancient Monuments, I should like to ask my noble friend a question. The clause to which this is an Amendment is in somewhat legal phraseology, and I should like to know from him whether I interpret the meaning rightly. I conclude it means that if there should happen to be an old ruin, for example, on one of these holdings, which the landlord considers to be in a state of disrepair or in peril of injury from some cause or another, he would have the right to go on to the small holding, although it was in the possession of the tenant, for the purpose of repairing that monument if he so thought fit, and would be at liberty to take the necessary steps for the purpose of preserving the monument from destruction.

LORD PENTLAND

There is a little more than that in it. It really gives power to the landlord to resume possession of a particular part of the holding upon which there happens to be standing some ancient monument or other object of archæological interest and take it into his own possession and keeping if he so desires.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 23:

Amendment moved— Page 27, line26, leaveout ("Department") and insert ("Board").—(Lord Pentland.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 25:

Jurisdiction of Land Court.

25.—(1) The Land Court shall be a body corporate with a common seal. Judicial notice shall be taken by all courts of justice of the corporate seal of the Land Court, and any order or other instrument purporting to be signed with it shall be received as evidence without further proof. All orders and determinations of the Land Court shall be in writing.

(2) For the purposes of the Landholders Acts, the Land. Court shall have full power and jurisdiction to hear and determine all matters, whether of law or fact, and no other court shall review the orders or determinations of the Land Court, subject always to the provisions of sections seven and seventeen of this Act: Provided that the Land Court may, if they think fit, and shall, on the request of any party unless they consider that such request is frivolous or vexatious, state a special case on any question of law arising in any proceedings pending before them, for the opinion of either division of the Court of Session, who are hereby authorised finally to determine the same.

(3) The Land Court may, without prejudice to any provision contained in section seven of this Act, ascertain the facts in any case by hearing parties and examining witnesses, or by means of affidavits, or by such other mode of inquiry as they may deem appropriate, and may require the production of all books, papers, plans, and documents relating to the case, and without prejudice to the provisions of section twenty-four of the Act of 1886, they may summon and examine on oath such witnesses as they think fit to call or allow to appear before them. They may, when sitting in open court, report in writing to the Lord Ordinary on the Bills any person who has been guilty of contempt of court; and the Lord Ordinary may punish such person as if the con tempt had been committed in his own court.

(4) The Land Court may determine the amount of the expenses in any proceedings before the Court and the proportion to be borne by the different parties.

(5) Three members of the Land Court shall be a quorum: Provided that it shall be lawful for the Land Court to delegate such of their powers as they think expedient to any one member or to any two members of the Court, with or without the assistance of one or more land valuers, assessors, or other skilled persons, and from time to time to revoke, alter, or modify any such delegation of powers; but any order or determination arrived at under such delegation shall be subject to review upon appeal by three or more members of the Court (including where such court of review consists of three members not more than one member who was a party to such order or determination) sitting together, one of whom shall be chairman of the Land Court.

(6) An order of the Land Court may be presented to the sheriff, and the sheriff, if satisfied that the order has been duly recorded, shall pronounce decree in conformity with such order on which execution and diligence shall proceed.

LORD PENTLAND moved to omit from the proviso in subsection (2) the words "may if they think fit, and." The noble Lord said: Perhaps your Lordships will allow me to make a slight explanation here. This Amendment and the other Amendments all go together. This clause gives power to the Land Court to state a special case on questions of law to a higher Court, and that discretion to state a special case as it stands in the Bill is guarded by this qualification, that they may refuse to state such a case if they consider it frivolous or vexatious. The noble Viscount opposite (Lord St. Aldwyn) suggests that that discretion which in the Bill is left with the Land Court should be handed over to a Judge of the Court of Session, and he has on the Paper an Amendment to insert in the clause words to the effect that the Land Court shall, on the request of any party, if a Judge of the Court of Session certifies that such request is not frivolous or vexatious, state a case. The Government prefer the Bill as it stands and take objection to the suggestion of the noble Viscount, but in order to meet him, if he really feels bound to press the point, which I trust he will not do, the Government would offer him as an alternative the omission of the words "unless they consider such a request frivolous or vexatious," as they would much rather have it mandatory on the Land Court to state a case on the request of the parties, leaving the parties themselves to bear any responsibility which may attach to them for having a case stated under circumstances which are frivolous or vexatious.

Amendment moved— Page 19, line 17, leave out from ("Court") to ("shall") in line 18.—(Lord Pentland.)

VISCOUNT ST. ALDWYN

I am very much obliged to the noble Lord. I think his Amendment is much better than mine, and I willingly accept it. I do not quite understand, however, how the words will read. Does the noble Lord intend to leave out the words "may if they think fit"? If so, I would ask him whether that is quite advisable, because if the Land Court considers that in some particular case there is a difficult point of law involved it would prevent them from stating a case and getting it settled. Is there any harm in the words?

LORD PENTLAND

No, I think not.

VISCOUNT ST. ALDWYN

That is the noble Lord's own Amendment.

LORD PENTLAND

I think I would prefer not to have this Amendment made. I beg, therefore, to withdraw it.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

VISCOUNT ST. ALDWYN

I do not move the Amendment standing in my name to which Lord Pentland referred.

LORD PENTLAND then moved to omit from subsection (2) the words "unless they consider that such request is frivolous or vexatious."

Amendment moved— Page 19, line 18, leave out from ("party") to ("state") in line 19.—(Lord Pentland.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD PENTLAND

By the next Amendment it is proposed to give the Chairman of the Land Court the same power as the Lord Ordinary to punish contempt of Court. A Lord Ordinary has the same powers with regard to punishment for contempt as the Inner House has. These powers are admonition, suspension from office in the case of a person practising before the Court, fine, and imprisonment. Contempt may be either direct, as; in the case of disobedience of the orders I or insult to the person of the Judge, or indirect by other acts calculated to impede or prevent the due administration of justice. When a sentence of imprisonment is imposed it may be either for a definite period (the length of which is in the discretion of the Judge, having, of course, regard to the nature and magnitude of the contempt) or for an indefinite period, as, for instance, until an order of Court is obeyed.

Amendment moved— Page 19, line 36, after ("Court") insert ("Provided that when the Chairman is so sitting he shall have the same power as the Lord Ordinary to punish contempt of court").—(Lord Pentland.)

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH

I understand that the noble Lord is only i going to put it in the power of the head of the Court to do this. As the Bill stood, and I took exception to it the other day, it might apparently have been done by any temporary Chairman in the absence of the judicial Chairman; but I think now I can withdraw my objection.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Amendment moved— Page 20, line 9, after ("be"(insert ("the").—(Lord Pentland.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 26:

Supplementary provisions and restrictions.

26.—(1) For the purposes of the Landholders Acts, a holding shall be deemed to include any right in pasture or grazing land held or to be held by the tenant or landholder whether alone or in common with others, and the site of any dwelling-house erected or to be erected on the holding or held or to be held therewith, and of any offices or other conveniences connected with such dwelling-house.

(2) A person shall not be admissible to registration as a new holder under this Act in respect of land belonging to more than one landlord or in respect of more than one holding and shall not be held an existing yearly tenant or a qualified leaseholder in respect" thereof unless such land or holdings have been worked as one holding.

(3) A person shall not be held an existing yearly tenant or a qualified leaseholder under this Act in respect of—

1. (a) Any land the present rent of which within the meaning of this Act exceeds fifty pounds in money, unless such land (exclusive of any common pasture, or grazing, held or to be held therewith) does not exceed fifty acres (but without prejudice to the power of the Land Court, in determining from time to time a fair rent, to fix a rent exceeding fifty pounds); or
2. (b) Any land being garden ground only, appurtenant to a house; or
3. (e) Any land within the parliamentary, police, or municipal boundary of any burgh or police burgh; or
4. (d) Any land being a market garden within the meaning of the Agricultural Holdings (Scotland) Act. 1908; or
5. (e) Any land being or forming part of any glebe, or any small holding under the Small Holdings Act, 1892, or any allotment under the Allotments (Scotland) Act, 1892, or the Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1894; or
6. (f) Any land that is not a holding within the meaning of the Agricultural Holdings (Scotland) Act. 1908; or
7. (g) Any land being woodland, or being or forming part of the home farm of any estate, or of any policy or park, or of any pleasure ground or other land used for the amenity or convenience of any residence or farmsteading; or being permanent grass park held for the purposes of a business or calling not primarily agricultural or pastoral, including that of butcher, cattle-dealer, and the like; or
8. (h) Any land bona fide held and used for purposes of public recreation; or
9. (i) Any land acquired, whether compulsorily or by agreement, for any undertaking of a public nature, under the authority of any Act of Parliament or any order having the force of an Act of Parliament.

(4) A person shall not be admissible to registration as a new holder under this Act in respect of any land referred to in paragraphs (a), (b), (c), (d), or (e), or, except by agreement, in respect of any land referred to in paragraphs (f), (g), (h), or (i) of the immediately preceding subsection.

(5) Nothing in this Act shall operate to prevent the registration of a new holder or the enlargement of a holding (whether by agreement or otherwise in either case) in respect of land comprised in a deer forest or otherwise kept or pre served mainly or exclusively for sporting purposes, but subject always to the provisions of section seven and section sixteen of this Act, as the case maybe.

(6) Notwithstanding anything contained in sub section one of this section, the holding of any existing yearly tenant or qualified leaseholder within the meaning of this Act shall not for the purposes of the Landholders Acts be deemed to include any lands or heritages at the commencement of this Act forming part of such holding and occupied by a sub-tenant of such existing yearly tenant or qualified leaseholder, whether paying rent or not.

(7) A person shall not be held an existing yearly tenant or a qualified leaseholder under this Act in respect of a holding referred to in section thirty-three of the Act of 1886, but nothing in that section shall operate to prevent the registration of a new holder by agreement in respect of a holding referred to therein, or the application of the Landholders Acts to such new holder and his statutory successors in respect of the holding. For the word "nor" where last occurring in that section the word "or" is hereby substituted.

(8) The provisions of section two of this Act shall extend to and include joint tenants being existing crofters, existing yearly tenants, or qualified leaseholders; but not more than one person shall be registered as a new holder in respect of any holding, and (without prejudice to the continuance of a joint tenancy through statutory successors) where at any time after the commencement of this Act a holding is held by a single landholder, or a holding which has been held in joint tenancy ceases to be so held, it shall not be competent for more than one person to be a landholder in respect of such holding.

(9) Except so far as may be inconsistent with any express provision of this Act the tenancy of a landholder under the Landholders Acts, shall, in the case of every existing crofter, be deemed to be in all respects a continuance of his tenancy as a crofter under the Crofters Acts, and all con tracts and other deeds and documents shall be read and construed accordingly.

(10) A person shall not be subject to the pro visions of this Act regarding statutory small o tenants who in terms of this section would be disqualified from being an existing yearly tenant i or a qualified leaseholder.

LORD PENTLAND moved to add at: the end of paragraph (b) of subsection (3) the words in his Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 20, line 38, after ("or") insert ("any land to which as the site of or as required for the protection of or for access to an ancient monument or other object of historical or archæological interest the Land Court determine that the Landholders Acts should not apply; or").—(Lord Pentland.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Amendment moved— Page 21, line 27, leave out ("(f)").—(Lord Pentland.)

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH

I should like to have some explanation of this. This paragraph (f) was in the Bill from the very commencement, and I do not see why it should be left out at this stage.

LORD PENTLAND

It is rather a technical matter. As the Bill was first introduced it was provided that a person should not be held to be an existing yearly tenant or a qualified leaseholder in respect of—and then followed the words "any land that is not either wholly agricultural or wholly pastoral or in part agricultural and as to the residue pastoral." That was the earlier form of paragraph (f). It was felt that those words were not quite satisfactory, and the words in paragraph (f) as it now stands were accordingly substituted. The definition of a holding in the Agricultural Holdings Act of 1908 is as follows— ' Holding' means any piece of land held by a tenant, which is either wholly agricultural or wholly pastoral, or in part agricultural and as to the residue pastoral, or in whole or in part cultivated as a market garden, and which is not let to the tenant during his continuance in any office, appointment, or employment held under the landlord. We can ignore market gardens, because they are safeguarded specially, and we can ignore service holdings because they are also dealt with specially under the Bill. The real substance of this matter is this. It is, of course, obvious that new holdings may be constituted out of pieces of land not held by separate tenants hitherto. The intention of altering paragraph (f) is simply to make it clear that new holdings are to be agricultural or pastoral or both. As it stands it is possibly not so clear as it might be, and for that reason it is proposed to insert the Amendment which I have to put down at the end of sub section (4), simply applying paragraph (f) in words rather than by reference. I hope the House will see fit to follow that suggestion.

LORD CLINTON

Is there any real advantage to anyone in leaving paragraph (f) in the clause at all, because you have already taken out of it under a former subsection the part which relates to market gardening. You have also taken out of it, under subsection (7), that part which relates to service occupation, and you leave nothing at all except the ordinary holding which is either wholly agricultural or wholly pastoral or part agricultural and part pastoral, or whatever it may be. Subsection (7), of course, applies to the whole of those as far as existing tenants are concerned. You yourselves apply it in subsection (4) to be taken for new holdings, and it seems to me that the addition of those particular words at the end of subsection (4) accomplish the whole object which you can possibly gain by leaving paragraph (f) in the clause as it stands. I do not in the least want to leave it out; I only want to inquire whether there is any real object in its remaining in.

LORD PENTLAND

It is simply for clearness. I think we shall get rather into confusion if we do not follow the course I have advised. Paragraph (f) is not moved out—it is only the letter I move to omit.

LORD CLINTON

The paragraph remains in?

LORD PENTLAND

Yes.

LORD CLINTON

I was under a misapprehension. It was the paragraph, of course, to which I was alluding.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD PENTLAND

I move to add at the end of subsection (4) the words in my Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 21, line 28, after ("subsection") insert ("or in respect of any holding which is not either wholly agricultural or wholly pastoral, or in part agricultural and as to the residue pastoral").—(Lord Pentland.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 28:

Transfer of powers and duties. 60 & 61 Vict. c. 53.

28. From and after the date of the commencement of this Act the Crofters Commission established by section seventeen of the Act of 1886, shall case to exist, and all the powers and duties vested in or imposed on the Crofters Commission by any Act of Parliament in force at such date shall, subject to the provisions of this Act, be vested in, transferred to, and imposed on the Land Court, and, except as otherwise provided by this Act, all such powers and duties shall be exercised and performed by the Land Court, as the case may be, as nearly as may be in like manner and subject to the same conditions, liabilities, and incidents respectively as such powers and duties might before such date have been exercised and performed by such Commission, and in the construction and for the purposes of any Act of Parliament, contract, or other deed, passed, entered into, or executed, or of any action or proceeding raised before such date, the name of the Land Court shall be deemed to be substituted for such Commission.

LORD PENTLAND

This Amendment to insert a new clause after Clause 28 is consequential.

LORD PENTLAND

The first is a drafting Amendment at the commencement of the clause.

Amendment moved— Page 23, line 1, leave out ("the date of").—(Lord Pentland.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD PENTLAND

The Amendments down to line 12 are all consequential in respect of the change from "Department" to "Board."

Amendments moved—

Page 23, line 3, after ("1886") insert ("and the Congested Districts (Scotland) Commissioners established by the Congested Districts (Scotland) Act, 1897")

Page 23, line 7, after ("Court") insert ("and all the powers and duties vested in or imposed on the (Congested Districts (Scotland) Commissioners by the Congested Districts (Scotland) Act) 1807, shall, subject as aforesaid be vested in, transferred to, and imposed on the Board")

Page 23, line 9, after ("Court") insert ("or the Board")

Page 23, line 12, after ("Commission") insert ("or Commissioners respectively")

Page 23, line 14, leave out ("or other deed") and insert ("order, regulation, decree, award or other document made")

Page 23, line 16, after ("Court") insert ("or the Board as the case may be")

Page 23, line 17, after ("Commission") insert ("or Commissioners respectively").—(Lord Pent-land.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Amendment moved— Page 23, line 17, after ("Commission") insert as a now subsection: (2) All powers and duties transferred to the Board, from the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries by this Act, or any Order in Council made in pursuance thereof, shall be exercised and performed by the Board as nearly as may be in like manner and subject to the same conditions, liabilities, and incidents as such powers and duties might before the date of transfer have been exercised and performed by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries; and in the construction and for the purposes of any Act of Parliament, contract, order, regulation, decree, award, or other document made, passed, entered into, or executed, or of any action or proceeding raised before the date of transfer, but so far only as may be necessary for the exercise of the powers or the discharge of the duties transferred, the name of the Board shall be substituted for the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries.—(Lord Pentland.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD PENTLAND

This Amendment to insert a new clause after Clause 28 is consequential.

Amendment moved— Insert the following new clause: (". All property belonging to, or held in trust for, the Congested Districts (Scotland) Commissioners shall from and after the commencement of this Act pass to and vest in and be held in trust for the Board, subject to all debts and liabilities affecting the same, and, subject to the provisions of this Act, shall be held by the Board for the purposes for which it is now held or would have been held if this Act had not passed")—(Lord Pentland.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 29:

Amendment moved— Page 23, line 21, after ("Court") insert ("and such of the persons employed by the Congested Districts (Scotland) Commissioners as the Secretary for Scotland, with the consent of the Treasury, may determine, shall from and after the commencement of this Act, be attached to and be officers of the Board").—(Lord Pentland.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Amendment moved— Page 23, line 26, after ("1859") insert ("Provided that any officer of the Congested Districts (Scotland) Commissioners in office at the commencement of this Act who may not be appointed an officer of the Board shall receive such compensation as the Treasury may determine").—(Lord Pentland.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 31:

Provisions as to statutory small tenants.

31. With respect to statutory small tenants the following provisions shall have effect:—

(1) A statutory small tenant means and includes a tenant from year to year, or leaseholder, not otherwise disqualified in terms of this Act, in regard to whom section two of this Act provides that he shall not be held an existing yearly tenant or a qualified leaseholder, and the successors of such tenant or leaseholder in the holding, being his heirs, legatees (as defined in section sixteen of the Act of 1866), or assignees (if assignation be permitted by the lease):

(2) Except so far as expressly applied by this Act, the Landholders Acts shall not apply to statutory small tenants:

(3) A holding which is or has been held by a statutory small tenant shall not be merged in or amalgamated with any other holding as defined in the Agricultural Holdings (Scotland) Act, 1908, except with the sanction of the Department:

(4) Except in any case where the landlord satisfies the Land Court that there is reasonable ground of objection to a statutory small tenant (hereinafter in this section referred to as the tenant) and the Land Court find accordingly, the tenant for the time being shall, not withstanding any agreement to the contrary, be entitled on any determination of the tenancy to a, renewal thereof on the terms and conditions hereinafter specified:

(5) Except so far as varied by this section, the Agricultural Holdings (Scotland) Acts, 1908 and 1910, shall apply in the case of the tenancy of a statutory small tenant in the same manner as if the tenancy were a lease, and for the purposes of those Acts and otherwise the tenancy, as renewed from time to time, shall be deemed to be a lease current for the period of renewal:

(6) Subject to the provisions of the last-mentioned Acts and of this section, the landlord and the tenant may agree upon the terms and conditions of the renewed tenancy:

(7) Failing agreement, the landlord or the tenant may have an equitable rent, or the period for which the tenancy is to be renewed, determined by arbitration in accordance with the provisions of the Agricultural Holdings (Scotland) Act, 1908, as amended by this section:

(8) In determining the rent the arbiter shall, so far as practicable, act on his own knowledge and experience, taking into consideration all the circumstances of the case, holding, and district, including the rent at which the holding has been let, the proposed conditions of the renewed tenancy, the improvements made by the landlord and tenant respectively, and the then condition and value of such improvements; and shall fix as the rent to be paid by the tenant the rent which, in his opinion, would be an equitable rent for the holding between the landlord and the tenant as a willing lessor and a willing lessee: Provided that he shall allow no rent in respect of any improvements made by or at the expense of the tenant or any predecessor in title for which he or his predecessor, as the case may be, has not received payment or fair consideration from the landlord or his predecessor:

(9) Subject as aforesaid, the terms and conditions of the renewed tenancy shall (except so far as agreed to be varied) be those of the determining tenancy, in the same way and to the same effect, as nearly as may be as if the tenancy had been continued for the full period of renewal under tacit relocation, and the tenant shall be entitled if he so desires, to a renewal on those terms and conditions:

(10) The Agricultural Holdings (Scotland) Acts, 1908 and 1910, as applied by this section, shall be varied as follows (that is to say):— In the Second Schedule to the Agricultural Holdings (Scotland) Act, 1908, the Land Court shall be substituted for the Board, and where in terms of that Schedule a person is nominated as arbiter by the Land Court his remuneration shall be paid by the Land Court:

(11) In the event of the landlord on the renewal of the tenancy failing to pro vide such buildings as will enable the tenant to cultivate the holding according to the terms of the lease or agreement or at any time to maintain the buildings and permanent improvements required for the cultivation and reasonable equipment of the holding, in so far as the tenant is not required at common law or by express agreement in writing to do so, it shall be lawful for the tenant to apply to the Land Court to so find and declare, and if the Land Court after hearing parties (if they desire to be heard) shall so find and declare, the tenant shall as from the date specified in the finding become a landholder, and the definition of landholder in this Act shall include such tenant and his successors in the holding, being his heirs or legatees:

(12) It shall be lawful for the Department to provide model forms of agreements for optional use by landlords and tenants under this section, provided that nothing herein contained shall make the use of any such form compulsory:

(13) In the event of any dispute arising as to whether a person is a statutory small tenant within the meaning of this Act, it shall be competent for the Land Court to determine such question summarily:

(14) Section two (as amended by this Act), subsection four of section six, section twenty, and section twenty-seven of the Act of 1886. section two of the Act of 1887 down to the word "summarily" and subsection nineteen of section seven, subsection four of section eight, section twelve, section twenty-five, and sub section one of section twenty-six of this Act, shall, with the substitution of "statutory small tenant" for "land holder." and "equitable rent" for "fair rent," and with any other necessary modifications, apply for the purposes of this section as they apply for the purposes of the Landholders Acts.

LORD CLINTON moved to amend subsection (1) by omitting "as denned" and inserting "if within the relationship specified." The noble Lord said: The Amendment I am proposing here is merely a verbal one, and seems to provide a better description. I do not know whether the noble Lord will accept it.

Amendment moved— Page 25, line 4, leave out ("as defined") and insert ("if within the relationship specified").—(Lord Clinton.)

LORD PENTLAND

I think I may accept that, subject, of course, to any criticisms which may be made upon it in another place.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD PENTLAND moved an Amendment in the same subsection to substitute"1886" for "1866."

Amendment moved— Page 25, line 4, leave out ("1866") and insert ("1886").—(Lord Pentland.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Amendment moved— Page 25, line 13, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board").—(Lord Pentland.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Amendment moved— Page 26, line 39, after ("time") insert ("failing").—(Lord Pentland.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to

LORD PENTLAND moved in, subsection (11), after "heard"["(if they desire to be heard)"], to insert the words in his Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 27, line 6, after ("heard") insert ("and after giving the landlord (if they think proper) an opportunity of remedying his failure as aforesaid").—(Lord Pentland.)

LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNE

I have an Amendment on the next page— Page 27, line 6, after ("declare") insert ("the Land Court shall give notice of their finding to the landlord and in the event of the landlord intimating to the Land Court at any time his intention not to remedy such failure or of his continuing in such failure for six months after the date of the notice"). This Amendment has very much the same object as the noble Lord's Amendment, but, if he will allow me to say so, I think it meets the case better than his Amendment does. The noble Lord has endeavoured to remove a grievous injustice, by which for insufficient cause a tenant may be removed from the position of a statutory small tenant to that of a landholder. As the clause stood it was, if I may say so, putting almost a premium on blackmail, because a tenant stood in the position of, "Heads I win; tails you lose." He had only to propose to the landlord any permanent improvement which he deemed necessary, and if the landlord refused the tenant could say, "Very well, I will take you to the Court. If I do not succeed, affairs will remain as they are; but if I do succeed I shall be transferred from a statutory small tenant to a landholder." This is a grievous injustice, and I am glad to see that the noble Lord has recognised it and attempted to remedy it, but he leaves the matter to the discretion | of the Court. He says the Court may, if they think proper, give the landlord an opportunity of remedying his failure as aforesaid. Take this case. A statutory tenant is in possession of a farm in which all the improvements have been made by the landlord, and he thinks a certain improvement is necessary. The landlord disagrees and the tenant refers to the Land Court, who may say it is necessary and may declare that the tenant shall become a landholder. Why they should be able to penalise the landlord, if they think fit, by transferring the tenant to the category of a landholder where he would have the various advantages which are only supposed to be granted to a tenant who has made all the improvements himself, I cannot make out. I should be quite prepared to accept the Amendment of the noble Lord and to withdraw mine when the proper time comes if he could see his way to omit the words "if they think proper." I confess I have not the same confidence in the Court as the noble Lord possesses, and if those words still remain in I hope the House will think that the noble Lord's Amendment ought to be rejected and mine inserted instead.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

It really is a substantial suggestion which the noble Lord has just put forward, because if the Court finds that a particular alteration is necessary and the landlord fails to carry it out, the tenant thereupon becomes a new landholder. Surely the option given by the words "if they think proper" is not one which ought to be given to the Court. Take the case of an insanitary dwelling. The sanitary authority says, "You must put your dwelling right; you must remedy these defects within a certain time." That is all that is proposed here. But as the Bill stands it would run thus," Your dwelling is insanitary, and therefore it is to be taken away from you unless you do so and so." I think that the proposal of the noble Lord is quite right that the words" if they think proper" should be omitted. Such a discretion ought not to be left to the Court.

LORD PENTLAND

I think we are looking at this from a little different point of view. The Land Court has no interest in making a statutory small tenant into a landholder at all. The position is really this, according to the clause either the statutory small tenant or the landlord may go to the Court—

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

I am not objecting to that.

LORD PENTLAND

They may go to the Court and say, "Here are some improvements which should be made," and as the clause was originally drawn the Court had to hear the parties. What the noble Lord wants is that there should be a full opportunity for the landlord to remedy any omissions on his part. As I am advised, as the clause was originally drawn that discretion lies with the Court. Any Court can adjourn its proceedings for any length of time; it has full power to do so, and it was amply in their discretion to make such an adjournment in order to bring the parties together. Lord Oranmore on the last occasion proposed an Amendment which insisted on an obligatory six months elapsing. I took objection to that, and pointed out that it might not be to the interest of the landlord himself that that six months should elapse. The landlord might be glad to get rid of the responsibility with regard to the holding, and I would submit to your Lordships that the Amendment I have put down meets every possible contingency. It might be a great hardship to a landlord to remain saddled with a holding and the responsibility for improvements which he does not wish to carry out. I think at the root of the noble Lord's Amendment is the idea that it matters to the Land Court in which category the tenant lies. It does not matter in the least to them. We have considered this with a desire to do justice to both sides, and I think the words I have suggested carry out that object.

LORD CLINTON

The noble Lord tells us that under the Bill as originally drawn the Court would have had discretion to give the landlord power to remedy any omission if he wished to do so. I think they ought in any case to give the landlord such an opportunity.

LORD PENTLAND

My objection was that the noble Lord's Amendment obliged the landlord to wait six months before anything could be done.

LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNE

I offered to change that if the noble Lord wished.

LORD CLINTON

While the noble Lord is quite right in objecting to the six months, I would point out that the discretion still remains with the Land Court as to whether j they shall give the landlord time or not as long as you keep in the words "if they think proper." I thoroughly agree with the proposal of the noble Lord, and if he would cut out the words" if they think proper" I personally would have no further objection.

THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE

Is it not possible to find some words which I will meet the point taken by my noble friends, because there really is a point which has to be met? The noble Lord in charge of the Bill said just now that the Land Court had no interest in converting a statutory small tenant into a landholder. That may be quite true, but surely under the Bill the Land Court will be compelled to convert him into a landholder if the Court finds that there have been laches on the part of the landlord and that he has failed to make those improvements in the equipment of the holding which the Court deems to be necessary. My noble friend's point is a very simple one. The Court finds, for example, that the erection of an out-building is necessary. Let the landlord be given an opportunity of putting up that building, and there is an end of everything. Surely that is a perfectly reasonable proposal.

LORD PENTLAND

I think the noble Marquess leaves out of consideration that this is the last step, possibly, in the whole series of negotiations. The tenant or the landlord will not go to the Land Court until they have exhausted all other remedies. They are sitting under an agreement which they themselves have come to. The tenant is selected by the landlord and continued by the landlord, and he is sitting under the agreement that has been made. It is only, I think, as the last resource that they will come before the Land Court, and, as Lord Clinton pointed out, it is in the discretion of the Land Court after they have heard the parties to take any action they like. They may dismiss it or adjourn it. They are not obliged to "so find and declare." The words are "if they shall so find and declare." It is in the discretion of the Court whether they shall so find and declare, and in that case the tenant and the landlord would be free to go on under the existing circumstances, or under the new circumstances which may have been brought about by an application to the Court.

THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE

Take a case where the landlord and the tenant fail to agree as to the addition of this particular out-building. The parties then go to the Court, and the Court finds that the out-building ought to be erected. All we say is, lot the landlord have an opportunity of complying with the requirements of the Court and of putting up the building and continuing the tenant as a statutory small holder, instead of having him converted over his head into a landholder.

LORD PENTLAND

I object to the clause obliging the Land Court to force upon the landlord an opportunity which he does not desire.

VISCOUNT ST. ALDWYN

Supposing you say, then," after giving the landlord, if he requests it, a reasonable opportunity."

LORD PENTLAND

I will consider the words. I do not think there is any difference in principle between the two sides of the House, and I will try and find suitable words.

LORD SALTOUN

I cannot understand ' the stress which the noble Lord puts on these words.

LORD PENTLAND

The real point is forcing upon the landlord a period of delay which he does not desire.

LORD SALTOUN

The words are, "if they think proper."

LORD PENTLAND

I do not like to attempt drafting on the spur of the moment, but it may save trouble if we put it in this way. I will substitute for the words "if they think proper" in my Amendment the words "if he so desires." We will put it in in that form, but we may have to change it afterwards. The Amendment would then read. "and after giving the landlord (if he so desires) an opportunity of remedying his failure as aforesaid."

On Question, Amendment, as amended, agreed to.

LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNE

I do not move my Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 27, line 11, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board").—(Lord Pentland.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Amendment moved— Page 27, line 20, leave out ("Section two, as amended by this Act").—(Lord Pentland.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Amendment moved— Page 27, line 31, after ("Acts") insert: ("(15) Without prejudice to any agreement between the parties, the Land Court may, on the application of the landlord, and upon being satisfied that he desires to resume the holding or part thereof for building, planting, feuing, or some other reasonable purpose having relation to the good of the holding or the estate (including any purpose specified in section nineteen of this Act), authorise the resumption thereof by the landlord, subject to the payment of the like compensation to the tenant in respect of improvements on or in connection with the land resumed, to which a tenant would be entitled under the Agricultural Holdings (Scotland) Act, 1908, on the determination of his tenancy, and in addition, where part only of the holding is resumed, to such reduction of rent as may be agreed between the parties, or, in case of dispute, determined by the Land Court").—(Lord Pentland.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 32:

Amendments moved—

Page 27, line 32, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")

Page 27, line 36, leave out ("President") and insert ("Secretary for Scotland").

Page 28, line 6, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board").—(lord Pentland.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 34:

Amendment moved— Page 28, line 21, leave out from ("in") to "and") in line 22, and insert ("the section of this Act providing for a register of small holdings ").—(lord Pentland.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 38:

Amendments moved—

Page 28, line 34, after the second ("the") insert ("Second")

Page 28, line 36, leave out from ("schedule") to the end of line 37.

Page 28, line 39, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board").

Page 39, line 5, leave out ("Department") twice occurring and insert ("Board").—(Lord Pentland.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Schedules:

LORD PENTLAND moved the insertion of a new schedule.

Amendment moved—

Insert the following new schedule to be the First Schedule to the Bill: ("The Acts specified in the First Schedule to the Board of Agriculture Act, 1889, and any enactment amending or extending the same. The Sale of Food and Drugs Acts, 1875 to 1907. The Markets and Fairs (Weighing of Cattle). Acts, 1887 and 1891. The Merchandize Marks (Prosecutions) Act, 1894. The Light Railways Act, 1896. The Fertilizers and Feedings Stuffs Act, 1906. The Agricultural Holdings (Scotland) Acts, 1908 and 1910. The Housing and Town Planning Act, 1909. The Development and Road Improvement Funds Acts, 1909 and 1910.")—(Lord Pentland.)

LORB BURGHCLERE

I move to amend the proposed new Schedule by inserting the words" Part II of" after the word "in" in the first line, and inserting after"1875 to 1907"the words "The Destructive Insects and Pests Acts, 1877 and 1907." Part I of the First Schedule of the Board of Agriculture Act, 1889, includes the Contagious Diseases (Animals) Acts which were previously administered by the Agricultural Committee of the Privy Council. These Acts were subsequently repealed and consolidated in the Diseases of Animals Act, 1894, but there was also included in Part I of the Schedule the Destructive Insects and Pests Act, 1877; and I think it would make it I clearer and better serve my noble friend's purpose if, instead of mentioning the First Schedule only, the Amendment should read "in Part II of the First Schedule," and at the same time insert the Destructive Insects and Pests Acts after"1907."I believe this is what my noble friend wishes to do, and it certainly makes the Bill clearer to understand and avoids any possible mistakes that might hereafter occur.

Amendment moved to the Amendment— To amend the new Schedule by inserting in the first line after ("in") the words ("Part II of"), and inserting in the Schedule after ("1907") the words ("The Destructive Insect and Pest Acts, 1877 and 1907").—(Lord Burghclere.)

LORD PENTLAND

I accept that.

On Question, Amendment, as amended, agreed to.

Amendment moved— Page 31, in column 3, insert at the beginning ("section one, section two").—(Lord Pentland.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

The Amendments on the Paper having been disposed of,

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH

said: I would ask the indulgence of the House for a moment. Unfortunately I was not here earlier in the evening, but I understand that a suggestion was made that the next stage of this Bill should be taken at midday to-morrow. This is very short notice, and I do not know whether the noble Lord is able to give us any assurance as to what Amendments are to be proposed. It is a very unusual thing to ask the House to sit twice on one day, and it is not very easy suddenly the night before to free oneself from engagements. I do not suppose I am saying anything that ought not to be mentioned, but I understand that an Amendment is likely to be suggested which might have an important bearing upon some consequential Amendments in which I am very much interested to the old Clause 32, now Clause 31, and I think it would greatly facilitate matters if we had some information from the Secretary for Scotland as to the course he is likely to pursue.

LORD PENTLAND

It is a little difficult to make any positive statement us to the proposals which are under discussion, but noble Lords opposite know what those proposals are, and probably the most convenient course would be that as soon as we are freed from business we should arrange how these are to be put in form, so that noble Lords in all parts of the House may be fully acquainted with them before we meet to-morrow. I will do my best to that end, and I have little doubt, considering the stage at which this discussion has arrived, that it would be possible for all noble Lords interested in this matter to be in possession of full information of the proposals before we meet to-morrow.

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH

This is a Scottish Bill, and you are asking the House to assemble at noon. It is perfectly obvious to me that no real representation of the House will come down at noon, and supposing we do not agree and have to go to a Division, the very small number present will hardly show the fair general sense of the House. The noble Lord will understand that I am anxious that no difficulty should be raised which is not absolutely necessary, but I point out that we may be placed in very great difficulty if we do not agree, because there may be a Division and then the thing would have to stand over until another day. If the noble Lord can take this Bill in the evening to-morrow, that difficulty would, in all probability, be avoided.

LORD PENTLAND

I am afraid I cannot undertake, without consultation, to make any change in the hour at which it is proposed to meet, but if it is evidently for the convenience of noble Lords opposite that we should meet later than 12 o'clock, I will endeavour to ascertain whether the arrangements for business generally will permit of such a change. I should be quite willing to fall in with it myself, but if the suggestion is not practicable I really hope that there may be nothing for us to disagree strongly about to-morrow, and possibly even if that were to take place we might be able to adjourn the House for an hour or two in order to meet the convenience of noble Lords. The Government would not take any objection to such a course being adopted.

THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE

I was going to make the same suggestion, that we might meet at noon to-morrow and endeavour to go on, and that if any difficulty arose the discussion should be adjourned and proceed later in the day.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

That arrangement, I assume, ought not to preclude conferences in the meantime, because probably a great deal more will be done by a few persons meeting together in conference than by an official sitting of the House. I have known that to be done on previous occasions, but I never remember the House meeting twice on one day to discuss public business.

Bill to be read 3^aTo-morrow, and to be printed as amended. (No. 246.)