§ LORD KILLANINMy Lords, I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies, when, in pursuance of the resolution passed at the Imperial Conference this year, a Royal Commission will be appointed to inquire into the commercial relations of the Empire and its shipping arrangements and means of transport, and whether, in view of Ireland's interest in such trade and means of transport in the North Atlantic, Ireland will be directly represented in the constitution of the Commission. As I believe the noble Lord who now represents the Colonial Office in this House will, in answering this Question, be addressing your Lordships for the first time, may I, as one who had the pleasure of knowing him when we were both Members of the other House, offer him very humbly a hearty word of welcome to this House.
The Question which I have put on the Paper divides itself into two parts, and with your Lordships' leave I would like to make a few observations on each part separately. The first half of my Question 657 asks the Under-Secretary when, in pursuance of the resolution passed at the Imperial Conference this year, a Royal Commission will be appointed to inquire into the commercial relations of the Empire and its shipping arrangements and means of transport. The question of the appointment of this Royal Commission came into existence in the following way. Mr. Fisher, the Prime Minister of Australia, had put down a resolution dealing with the commercial relations of the Empire in rather general terms, and when the matter came on for discussion at the Imperial Conference Sir Wilfrid Laurier, while expressing sympathy with the object of the resolution, said that in his opinion it was not likely to lead to tangible results, and that it was difficult to suggest improvements in the trade relations between the Dominions and the United Kingdom and between the Dominions themselves unless they had more information than they had at the present time; and on the strength of that he proposed the following resolution—
That His Majesty should be approached with a view to appoint a Royal Commission representing the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, and Newfoundland, with a view of investigating and reporting upon the natural resources of each part of the Empire represented at this Conference, the development attained and attainable, and the facilities for production, manufacture, and. distribution; the trade of each part with the others and with the outside world, the food and raw material requirements of each, and the sources thereof available, and to what extent, if any, the trade between each of the different parts has been affected by existing legislation in each, either beneficially or otherwise.After that resolution had been proposed, Mr. Harcourt, the Secretary of State for the Colonies, said he had no difficulty in accepting the resolution provided the following was added to it—and by what methods consistent with the existing fiscal policy of each part the trade of each part with the others may be improved and extended.Now that was the resolution that was finally passed unanimously at the Imperial Conference, and it was greeted by the various Prime Ministers as a most practical way of dealing with this difficult question. Mr. Fisher called it "a most practical way of dealing with a rather difficult set of questions." Sir Joseph Ward also accepted it as a very practical way of dealing with the question, and he further pointed out that it would place information, and practical information, before them, and he said that they were really not in a 658 position to ask their respective Legislatures to do what might be necessary in the shape of legislation till they had that information. And finally the Prime Minister said—I think the Conference is very much indebted to Sir Wilfrid Laurier for making this very practical proposal. It will set up as the result of the Conference a body whose labours will certainly prepare the way, and possibly make the way plain, for effective practical action by the next Conference; and possibly before the next Conference meets, for the legislation of the Governments of the different parts of the Empire.I do not think that I am showing any impatience in, after six mouths have elapsed, putting down a Question to His Majesty's Government to ask them when this Commission will be appointed, or, at least, what steps are being taken or have been taken to bring it into existence.I am well aware that a Royal Commission of this sort cannot he appointed in a hurry. The parties will not be merely interested or concerned in this country; they will represent the various Dominions of the Empire and the United Kingdom, and it stands to reason that there would be considerable difficulty in forming such a Royal Commission. Then the subjects to be considered by the Commission are also large and complex matters. The terms of reference would, too, probably present some difficulty. For all these reasons I do not wish to be understood as suggesting that I think there has been any avoidable delay, because I recognise the importance of the Commission and the many likely difficulties in bringing into being what will be the most important Royal Commission that has ever been appointed. Yet in view of the fact that this decision of the Imperial Conference was greeted as a very practical way of dealing with this question, and that the hope was expressed that the Commission would have reported in time for legislation to be carried out in the different portions of the Empire before the next Conference, and that six months have gone by since this resolution was passed, and we are now only three-and-a-half years oft the next Imperial Conference—in these circumstances I think I am not impatient in asking that we should get some information on this subject, more especially as we are shortly rising and there will be no opportunity, in Parliament at any rate, of informing the public what progress, if any, is being made in the constitution of this Royal Commission.
659 In the second part of my Question I ask whether, in view of Ireland's interest in such trade and means of transport in the North Atlantic, Ireland will be directly represented in the constitution of the Commission. I confess that as an Irishman, while interested in the whole question, I am more intimately and more directly interested in the answer which the noble Lord may give to this part of my Question, and am glad of the opportunity of asking this Question before the Royal Commission has been appointed. It might be supposed that Ireland, being a poor country, had small commercial relations, and it might at first glance not be apparent why she should require special representation in such a matter. But I wish to point out to His Majesty's Government that the poverty or wealth of a country has little or nothing to say to its external commercial relations, to its imports or exports, and that as a matter of fact some of the poorest countries have much larger commercial relations than rich countries per head of the population of those countries. In that connection it is interesting to take the United States of America. The United States, in spite of being such a great and rich country, has, as a matter of fact, per head of population very small external commercial relations. I mean by commercial relations external imports and exports. The commercial relations of a country do not depend upon the poverty or wealth of it, but on whether that country is self-contained, self-supporting, and self-sufficing in its productions. It depends on its capacity to produce its own needs. There are, I submit to your Lordships, poor countries, such as Ireland, which, as a matter of fact, have large commercial relations per head of the population. The fact is, Ireland has the second or third largest commercial relations per head of all the countries of Europe. The reason is quite simple. It is because Ireland is a country that produces in large excess one form of product, and hardly produces at all another form of product, and therefore she has a great commercial exchange. I therefore hope that I have shown His Majesty's Government that. Ireland is a country that is peculiarly interested in any question likely to affect the commercial relations of the country.
It may be said that Ireland is in the same boat as England in this matter; and if so, why should any separate consideration 660 be given to Ireland's interests. But Ireland's exports and imports are the exact opposite of Great Britain's exports and imports. As regards the commercial relations of Ireland to Great Britain, that is a great advantage. Differences between nations can, like differences between human beings, be either antagonistic or of mutual advantage, and, as a matter of fact, the difference in the commercial products that Ireland exports and imports and those which Great Britain exports and imports, each to the other, is a great commercial advantage to both countries, and the exchange fits in admirably. Therefore you might ask again, if Ireland is in that position, where do her separate interests in this matter come in. Her separate interests in this matter come in when you begin to relate the commercial interests of these two countries to a third party. As long as you are only considering Great Britain and Ireland the difference in their respective products is a benefit to both, and their commercial relations to one another are advantageous, but it is quite another matter when you come to consider their respective commercial interests and products in connection with a third party, such as Canada. Then the difference between their commercial products becomes extremely important, and it becomes therefore necessary, as I submit to His Majesty's Government, that Ireland's large, separate, and distinct commercial interests should receive direct representation on this Royal Commission. If I were asked to give an instance where Ireland was specially interested in the way I have described, I could not do better than refer to a topic which Sir Wilfrid Laurier and others at the Imperial Conference instanced as typical of the sort of subject that would come under the consideration of such a Royal Commission. That was the embargo on the importation of Canadian cattle. I am not going on this occasion to argue the merits or the pros and cons of that question. I only give it as one out of many of the commercial interests which would come under the consideration of this Commission, and in which Ireland, and Ireland especially, would be deeply and vitally interested.
There are other aspects of this matter to which I would like very shortly to refer, and in which I think Ireland has a peculiar and special concern. In the past commercial intercourse across the Atlantic 661 between Great Britain and America was mainly to the United States of America. But now there is the extraordinary development. of Canada, where cities and industrial concerns and the population are increasing at an amazing rate; and there is the position of Newfoundland also, which is now growing prosperously as a colony of the Empire, and we must bear in mind that traffic—of passengers, mails, and freight—from Great Britain across the Atlantic will he directed more and more in the future to Canada and Newfoundland. Now it is quite clear, as a geographical fact, that the shortest and quickest line, and therefore the cheapest and safest route, from Great Britain to Canada and Newfoundland must go through Ireland. In the case of any other route from Great Britain the ships must stiffer from inconvenience and delay and danger in going round Ireland. In this ocean trade route across the North Atlantic, as distinguished from trade routes going to the United States, Ireland is either an obstacle in the way, or it can be made, as I hope it will be made, a stepping stone on that route. That is another very important aspect of this question in connection with the shipping interests and the means of transport between the United Kingdom and the Dominion of Canada, in which, I would suggest to His Majesty's Government, Ireland has peculiar and special interests which ought not to be neglected, and which ought to be directly represented.
I hope that His Majesty's Government will support the view which I have endeavoured to present, and that they will show their desire in this matter to serve and to develop and protect the commercial interests of Ireland which have been so much neglected. So much so is this the case, that one may say there is no country in the world where they have been less attended to, and where they more require attention. Mr. Bonar Law, in his speech in the House of Commons the other day, I was glad to see, said—
It has always been our policy, and it always will be my desire, to help in every possible way to develop the resources of Ireland;And Lord Lansdowne, at Derby, said last Friday—Ireland has resources which require to be developed; she has industries which deserve to be encouraged.662 I hope His Majesty's Government will not be behindhand in taking its part in protecting and developing the commercial interests of Ireland.
§ THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (LORD EMMOTT)My Lords, in the first place may I thank the noble Lord opposite for his kind and courteous welcome to your Lordships' House. It is true that this is the first time that. I have spoken in this House, and it is also true that this is the first time I have ever spoken in either House in a Ministerial capacity. For six years I have had a good deal of experience in listening to speeches in another place, but I have had no experience in making them in regard to political questions; and therefore I shall find myself, I expect, a little out of practice in that department. I have in these circumstances especial need on this the first occasion on which I take any part in your debates to throw myself upon the kind indulgence of your Lordships' House.
The noble Lord began his speech by an account of what happened at the Imperial Conference, an account which I think was perfectly correct, and he expressed some concern at the apparent delay that has occurred in the appointment of a Royal Commission to inquire into our Imperial trade. His Question, I think, is a very reasonable one. As he pointed out, it is divided into two parts. The first part is as to when, in pursuance of the resolution passed at the Imperial Conference this year, a Royal Commission will be appointed to inquire into the commercial relations of the Empire and its shipping arrangements and means of transport. I am sorry to say that I cannot give a categorical answer to that question. Nothing would give me greater pleasure than to be able to tell the noble Lord now that the Commission would be appointed in a few clays time, and would commence its work within a few weeks. But, my Lords, correspondence in regard to matters of detail is taking place—and correspondence is a very lengthy business in a world-wide Empire like ours—between widely scattered parts of His Majesty's Dominions. I do not for a moment mean to imply that any difficulty has arisen. The negotiations and the correspondence are proceeding in a normal way to a satisfactory conclusion. But sonic further delay must occur before any announcement can be 663 made. Therefore at present I cannot give any more precise answer to the first part of the noble Lord's Question.
The second part of the Question deals with the separate representation of Ireland on this Royal Commission. I think I am bound to give a quite frank and straightforward reply to that question. The noble Lord opposite gave various reasons why Ireland should be separately represented. He stated that she has separate interests, and that those interests are affected when a third party comes into the question. He mentioned particularly as examples the question of the so-called embargo on Canadian cattle. That is a question about which I shall have something more to say in a few moments. He mentioned also the question of Atlantic routes. I quite agree with him that Ireland's interests ought not to be neglected in this inquiry, and I am quite sure that they will not be neglected. But a separate representation from Ireland would practically involve parcelling out the United Kingdom into geographical areas and appointing separate representatives from each part of the United Kingdom. I do not think it is the intention of His Majesty's Government to adopt that plan. Their intention is to appoint as representatives men who shall as completely as possible represent the general interests of the United Kingdom in this inquiry as to food, raw material and other natural products, and the production, manufacture, and distribution of each part of the British Empire. In other words, they will have regard rather to the general interests of the United Kingdom than to the particular part of the United Kingdom in which individual members who are chosen to serve on that Commission happen to live.
I need not remind your Lordships that this must be an inquiry on a great scale. The British Empire is a vast Empire. Its resources, its production of food and other raw materials, its manufacture, its shipping, are all on an immense scale, and this kingdom is the head and centre of this Empire. I emphasise that point because the noble Lord opposite specially mentioned one matter in regard to which we know Ireland is specifically interested, and that is the question of the so-called embargo on cattle. I wish we could call that a requirement to slaughter at the ports, because I do not like the word "embargo." 664 That is really what it is. It is a requirement to slaughter cattle at the ports. I must point out that that question affects one branch of agriculture. Anybody who had the opportunity of listening to the interesting debate in this House the other night, in which that question was dealt with, roust realise its enormous importance, and anybody who heard the powerful speech of my noble friend Lord Burghclere will remember what a graphic picture he drew of the enormous destruction caused by cattle disease some thirty or forty years ago in this country. The question is of enormous importance. But what would be the effect of appointing a representative from Ireland especially with reference to that question? Would it not be to indicate that there was some change probable in the policy of this country, and if it did give any impression of that kind I venture to think it would be very misleading, and very much to be regretted. Again, why should that particular subject be chosen? There is an old legal maxim—I know nothing about law myself, but it applies to this matter—inclusio unius exclusio alterius. I think it does apply to this question. If you appoint a representative in regard to one branch of agriculture, are you not inferentially saying that other questions relating to agriculture are of minor importance?
§ LORD KILLANINMy proposal was not that there should be a representative from Ireland so as to represent one branch of agriculture, but that there should be a representative from Ireland of Ireland's commercial interests, because they are peculiar to Ireland and different from those of Great Britain. I only mentioned the cattle embargo because it was mentioned at the Imperial Conference so much.
§ LORD EMMOTTThe noble Lord combined the two things. He was to be a representative of Ireland, and he would represent, in the first instance, as one of the questions in which Ireland was specially interested, the embargo on cattle. However, I will not further pursue that question. It does seem to me that if we were to adopt a plan such as I thought the noble Lord suggested we should not get as good a representation of the general interests of the United Kingdom as I think and hope will be obtained under the plan of the Government. A little reflection, 665 I think, will show that it is better in an inquiry of this magnitude to appoint the representatives with a view to their knowledge of the general interests of the United Kingdom, rather than to choose them because of that part of the United Kingdom in which they happen to live or with reference to what must in a vast inquiry like this be comparatively sectional interests.
§ LORD KILLANINMy Lords, I cannot express myself satisfied with the reply received from the noble Lord. Ireland in fiscal or commercial matters is always doomed to be badly treated or disregarded. The noble Lord insists upon treating the United Kingdom as one commercial unit, and as having similar commercial interests in this matter. I have endeavoured to show to him that the commercial interests of the two countries are different, and that, although that difference is an advantage as between the two countries, it would be very important that it should be properly represented when you came to consider the relation of the different commercial products of the two countries to other parties. Therefore I do press upon him that he should recognise in this matter the geographical distinction between Ireland and Great Britain. As regards Great Britain itself, roughly speaking, its commercial interests all over the country are similar. It is a great manufacturing country, importing food stuffs. Ireland is a country with hardly any manufactures, and exporting food stuffs. Ireland and Great Britain have, therefore, distinct and different interests in this matter, and I hope that when His Majesty's Government come to finally settle about the appointment of this Royal Commission, they will see that Ireland is entitled to receive, and should receive, distinct representation on it. I do not suggest for a moment that the person appointed should only represent his own corner, so to speak; nor do we contemplate that the Premiers from the different Dominions are going only to represent their own corner. I would, of course, expect that whoever was entrusted with the Irish case would fit in his view as well as possible into the general conditions of the situation, and have full regard for the great world-wide objects of the inquiry that was to be held. All I suggest is that there should be some one on the Commission who would be competent to present Ireland's case.