HL Deb 14 September 1909 vol 2 cc1187-94

Amendments reported according to Order.

LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU said he had had a conversation with the noble Lord in charge of the Bill and had been given to understand that if two Amendments which had been placed in his hands were moved in lieu of those standing in his name on the Paper the Government would accept them. He would be pleased to move those Amendments in the proper place.

Consequential Amendments to Clause 13 agreed to.

Verbal Amendments to Clauses 32 and 33 agreed to.

LORD HAMILTON OF DALZELL moved the insertion of a new clause after Clause 35. The object of the Amendment was, he explained, to allow certain unregistered trade unions which had been established for more than twenty years to be given similar exemption to that which the registered trade unions were given by the Bill. The reason for doing this was that certain very old-established trade unions, particularly in the textile trades, had not been registered under the Trade Union Act. As their Lordships knew, there was no reason why a trade union should be registered unless the members wished it. There was no obligation upon them to register, and he understood that the reason these trade unions had not registered was that many of the workers in these trades were very young and did not comply with the age limit of the Trade Union Act.

Amendment moved— After Clause 35, to insert the following new clause: 'The Board of Trade may, on the application of any unregistered trade union originally established more than twenty years before the commencement of this Act, extend to the trade union the exemption conferred by this Act on registered trade unions.' "—(Lord Hamilton of Dalzell.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

*VISCOUNT ST. ALDWYN had an Amendment on the Paper to Clause 36. He reminded their Lordships that he had called attention in Committee to the proposals of this clause, and had suggested to His Majesty's Government that they hardly knew enough with regard to the action of these industrial insurance companies and collecting societies to justify legislation and that really an inquiry before legislation would be better. He hoped that might still be considered, but he did not wish to press it now. He also felt that as great abuses had taken place in the past, the law being practically neglected, and as the Government proposed to narrow the right of insurance in the future there ought to be some security that the law would be observed in the future. He therefore asked at the previous stage of the Bill whether there was any penalty on companies and collecting societies for breaches in the law in this respect, and the noble Lord in charge of the Bill, he thought under a mistake, assured him that there was. He now found that there was none and therefore he proposed to insert in the clause a new subsection to bring a breach of the law in this respect under the penalties of the Bill. Together with that he thought they might fairly extend the insurable interest proposed in subsection (1) from "money to be paid for the funeral expenses of a parent" to "money to be paid for the funeral expenses of a parent, grandparent, or grandchild."

Amendment moved— In Clause 36, page 19, line 22, after the word 'parent,' to insert the words 'grandparent or grandchild,' and after line 35, to insert the following new subsection: '(3) Any collecting society or industrial insurance company which, after the passing of this Act, issues policies of insurance which are not within the legal powers of such society or company shall be held to have made default in complying with the requirements of this Act; and the provisions of this Act with respect to such default shall apply to collecting societies, industrial insurance companies, and their officers in like manner as they apply to assurance companies and their officers.'"—(Viscount St. Aldwyn.)

LORD HAMILTON OF DALZELL acknowledged that in replying to the noble Viscount on the last stage of the Bill he was not strictly accurate in the answer which he gave. He was very sorry that that should have been so. He always endeavoured to be as accurate as possible, but admitted that he was not so on that occasion. The Government were prepared to accept the noble Viscount's Amendment.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD HAMILTON OF DALZELL moved to leave out the beginning of subsection (3)— (3) In addition to the powers conferred by section seventy-one of the Friendly Societies Act, 1896, a collecting society having more than one hundred thousand members shall convert itself into a company under the Companies Consolidation Act, 1908, if so ordered by the Court, and such an order may be made on the petition of the committee of management or other governing body of the society unless, and to insert other words merely with the object of making the sense of the clause clearer.

Amendment moved— In page 19, line 36, to leave out from the beginning of subsection (3) to the word 'unless' in page 20, line 2, and to insert the words 'Without prejudice to the powers conferred by section seventy-one of the Friendly Societies Act, 1896, the committee of management or other governing body of a collecting society having more than one hundred thousand members may petition the Court to make an order for the conversion of the society into a company under the Companies Consolidation Act, 1908, and the Court may make such an order.' "—(Lord Hamilton of Dalzell.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Drafting Amendments agreed to.

*VISCOUNT ST. ALDWYN had an Amendment on the Paper to leave out subsection (3) of Clause 36. With regard to this subsection, which allowed the conversion by order of the Court of a collecting society having more than 100,000 members into a company, which might no doubt in certain circumstances be very desirable, he thought that some provision was required for enabling the members of the society to be heard in a manner which the subsection did not now provide. He had heard of a case of a collecting society in Lancashire removing its offices from Manchester to London and then holding its meeting in London, which few of the members could attend, and taking steps to the advantage of certain of the office holders and others which might not have been sanctioned by all the members of the society. That was what they wanted to avoid as far as possible. Therefore he hoped the noble Lord in charge of the Bill was prepared with some Amendment to insure that applications of this kind to the Court should be published in newspapers circulating in the districts in which the societies existed as well as in the Gazette, and also to permit the Court to allow the expenses of such persons opposing the application who were members of the society. He did not, however, move his Amendment to omit the subsection.

LORD HAMILTON OF DALZELL agreed with the noble Viscount that the fullest possible notice ought to be given to every one interested in a case of this sort, and he had two small Amendments which he hoped would carry out that purpose. The first of these Amendments, which he now moved, met the case where an unreasonable and vexatious application of this sort was made.

Amendment moved— In Clause 36, page 20, line 6, after the word 'conversion,' to insert the words 'and the Court may award reasonable costs of opposition.' "—(Lord Hamilton of Dalzell.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD HAMILTON OF DALZELL then moved his second Amendment, and expressed the hope that he had now met the two points made by the noble Viscount.

Amendment moved— In Clause 36, page 20, line 10, after the word 'Gazette,' to insert the words 'and in such newspapers as the Court may direct.' "—(Lord Hamilton of Dalzell.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU said that although he felt it would be greatly to the advantage of policy-holders in this country to know what part of the assets of a company doing business outside the United Kingdom was hypothecated there, he would not move the Amendment standing in his name on the Paper to this effect in view of the fact that it was not acceptable to the Board of Trade.

Consequential Amendment to the Third Schedule agreed to.

LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU had an Amendment on the Paper to add, at the end of Note 3 in the Third Schedule, the words— Companies established outside the United Kingdom must state the amount of assets in the hands of any British Corporation or trustee for the benefit of British policy-holders. He said that this Amendment was considered by the Life Office Association and the Institute of Actuaries as an important Amendment, and he was sorry that the noble Lord in charge of the Bill could not see his way to accept it. He regretted this, because he thought it important that companies which had not got a British location should state the amount of assets which were retained for the benefit of British policy-holders. As the Government could not accept the Amendment, however, he would not move it. But he would proceed to move the first of the two Amendments to which he had referred at the outset of the discussion.

Amendment moved— In the Fourth Schedule, page 28, line 1, to insert the words 'N.B.—Where sinking fund or capital redemption insurance business is carried on, a separate statement signed by the actuary must be furnished showing the total number of policies valued, the total sums assured, and the total office yearly premiums, and also showing the total net liability in respect of such business and the basis on which such liability is calculated.' "—(Lord Montagu of Beaulieu.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU then moved the second Amendment.

Amendment moved— In the Fifth Schedule, page 45, to insert the words 'N.B.—Where sinking fund or capital redemption business is carried on a separate statement signed by the actuary must be furnished showing the total sums assured maturing in each calendar year and the corresponding office premiums.' "—(Lord Montagu of Beaulieu.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

VISCOUNT ST. ALDWYN moved to insert, in the Fifth Schedule, a provision to the effect that policies or certificates which had lapsed and been revived should not be entered as lapses. The reason for the Amendment was this. Companies were required to return their lapses, and he was informed that in many cases policies which had been allowed to lapse were revived, and in such cases a company which was debited with lapses in its return would be rather unfairly treated.

Amendment moved— In page 48, at the end of subsection (10), to insert the words 'provided that policies or certificates which have lapsed and been revived shall not be entered as lapses.' "—(Viscount St. Aldwyn.)

LORD HAMILTON OF DALZELL accepted the Amendment.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Verbal Amendments to the Sixth Schedule agreed to.

LORD HAMILTON OF DALZELL said he had a series of Amendments to the Eighth Schedule which carried out the undertaking he gave to their Lordships on the previous stage of the Bill that the agreement arrived at with the Committee of Lloyd's regarding the application of this Bill to underwriters should be included in the Schedule. He understood that the words as they appeared on the Paper had the approval not only of those who were acting on behalf of Lloyd's, but also of those who represented the great insurance companies.

Amendment moved— In page 50, line 13, after the word 'Underwriters,' to insert the words 'being members of Lloyd's or of any other Association of Underwriters approved by the Board of Trade.' "—(Lord Hamilton of Dalzell.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Amendment moved— In page 50, line 29, after the word 'fire,' to insert the words 'and accident' "—(Lord Hamilton of Dalzell.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Amendment moved— In page 50, line 30, to leave out the words 'every underwriter' and to insert the words 'Except as hereinafter provided, every underwriter shall comply with the following requirements (a) He.' "—(Lord Hamilton of Dalzell.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Amendment moved— In page 51, line 1, to leave out '2. The underwriter' and to insert '(b) He.' "—(Lord Hamilton of Dalzell.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Amendment moved— In page 51, line 4, after 'him' to insert: '2. An underwriter who carries on fire insurance or accident insurance business, may, in lieu of complying with the above requirements, elect to comply with the under-mentioned conditions:

  1. (a) All premiums received by or on behalf of the underwriter in respect of fire and accident insurance business carried on by him either alone or in conjunction with any other non-marine insurance business for which special requirements are not laid down in this schedule shall be placed in a trust fund in accordance with the provisions of a trust deed approved by the Board of Trade.
  2. (b) He shall also furnish security to the satisfaction of the Board of Trade (or, if the Board so direct, to the satisfaction of the committee of the association), which shall be available solely to meet claims under policies issued by him in connection with such business.
  3. (c) The accounts of every underwriter shall be audited by an accountant approved by the committee of the association, who shall furnish a certificate to the committee of the association in a form prescribed by the Board of Trade.
  4. (d) For the purpose of these requirements 'non-marine insurance business' means the business of issuing policies upon subject-matters of insurance other than the following, namely:
Vessels of any description, including barges and dredgers, cargoes, freights, and other interests which may be legally insured by, in, or in relation to vessels, cargoes, and freights, goods, wares, merchandise, and property of whatever description insured for any transit by land or water, or both, and whether or not including warehouse risks or similar risks in addition, or as incidental to such transit.' "—(Lord Hamilton of Dalzell.)

VISCOUNT MILNER, speaking on behalf of the insurance companies, thanked the Government for putting the regulations dealing with Lloyd's in the Schedule. He considered them thoroughly satisfactory. Some people desired to go further, but he could not himself advocate regulations of greater stringency. He did not, however, think it was desirable that it should be left absolutely to Lloyd's to carry them out, without any sort of Parliamentary or Governmental control. In order, therefore, that some Government Department should have cognizance of the carrying out of the regulations, he moved to make it obligatory that copies of the certificates given by chartered accountants to members of Lloyd's, showing that they were carrying on their business in accordance with the provisions of the Act, should be sent to the Board of Trade.

Amendment moved to the Amendment— In paragraph (c), after the words 'The accounts of every underwriter shall be audited by an accountant approved by the committee of the association, who shall furnish a certificate to the committee of the association,' to insert the words 'and to the Board of Trade.' "—(Viscount Milner.)

LORD HAMILTON OF DALZELL accepted this Amendment.

On Question, Amendment to the Amendment agreed to.

Amendment, as amended, agreed to.

Bill to be read 3a on Thursday next, and to be printed as amended. (No. 173.)

House adjourned at ten minutes past Eight o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Four o'clock.