§ Moved, That there be laid before the House a Return showing the changes which would become necessary in the staffs of the public elementary schools under the several local education authorities in England and Wales, and the cost entailed by making such changes; such Return to be prepared so as to show—
- (a) The present salaries of the existing staffs, their staff value under paragraph 3 of Circular 709, and the maximum salaries payable to them;
- (b) The average number on the registers for the twelve months ended 28th February last;
- (c) The average attendance for the same period;
- (d) The staff as re-adjusted so as to satisfy the minimum requirements of paragraphs 3, 7, and 10 of Circular 709, with the
595 salaries payable to such re-adjusted staffs— - 1. At the minimum of the scale of salaries in all cases;
- 2. At the maximum.—(The Earl of Onslow.)
§ THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (VISCOUNT WOLVERHAMPTON)My Lords, the Board of Education do not possess the information which is required for the Return. They could not give such a Return without calling upon the local education authorities to furnish the materials; and it is practically certain that even the local authorities could not give the information for their respective areas without undertaking a special and elaborate analysis of their records.
Therefore, as regards heads (a), (b),and (c) of the desired Return, the local authorities would probably object to be asked to furnish the mass of detailed particulars involved. There are 150,000 teachers on the staffs of public elementary schools, and consequently head (a) alone may involve as many as 300,000 entries. As regards head (d) it would not be possible to give a Return based on paragraphs 3, 7, and 10 of the Circular showing the direct immediate results of the new regulations, as paragraph 10 will not be in full operation for five years, and paragraph 6 to which the noble Earl does not refer (size of classes and suitability of staff), is in many areas the most important part of the Circular. Moreover, there is this further difficulty, that it would be useless to include those very numerous authorities who do not expect to be affected, and that, in areas where increased expenditure is anticipated, the Board could not reasonably be asked to calculate the increased expenditure, nor would local authorities be likely to accept such calculations, even if the Board could undertake the task.
The Board of Education agree with the noble Earl in thinking it desirable to have definite, and, so far as may be, accurate estimates of the increased cost directly involved in the new regulations, but the problem is not of the simple character suggested in the Motion. In the case of town schools especially it is not merely a question of improving the present staff with a view to the new scale of staff values for the existing number of scholars. Other matters must also be taken into account, such as the organisation of the school generally, the division of the scholars into classes, and the sizes of the rooms, and allowance must be 596 made for the possibility of meeting the new requirements by reorganising schools, reclassifying scholars, redistributing the available teaching staff in the schools in the area, transferring scholars to other schools, or regulating promotions and admissions. Trustworthy estimates can only be obtained when the calculations have been made and scrutinised by persons having intimate knowledge of the schools. The only practicable course is for the local authority to frame its own estimate, which can then be examined and discussed by the Board's inspectors. Estimates thus agreed to by the Board and the authority will be of greater value and give more satisfaction to both parties than calculations made on the lines suggested in the Motion.
Soon after the issue of the Circular, the Board intimated that their officials would be prepared to examine any estimates framed by local education authorities. But up to the present time only twenty-seven out of sixty-three counties, eleven out of seventy-four county boroughs, and three out of 191 non-county boroughs and urban districts have formally submitted estimates. Estimates for sixteen counties have been examined. The remainder are either under examination, or the subject of correspondence between the Board and the authority. The Board hope shortly to present the results of the examination, but except in a few areas where the standard of staffing is markedly below the average, it will be possible to bring the new regulations into operation without any really serious increase in expenditure.
§ VISCOUNT WOLVERHAMPTONThe circumstance that so few authorities have thought it necessary to frame precise estimates is in itself evidence that most of them do not anticipate that they will be much affected. The change in the system of grants embodied in this year's Code will materially assist the local authorities in adjusting the organisation of their schools to meet the requirements of the Circular. The Board of Education will at an early date lay a statement showing in a summary manner the estimated financial effect of the changes made in the Code for 1909 in pursuance of Circular 709. The statement will show the estimates made by those local education authorities who have furnished the Board with figures, and will also show the Board's estimate, arrived at 597 after discussion between their inspectors and officers of the local authorities concerned, of the initial expenditure other than expenditure on buildings involved by compliance with the new requirements. I may add that if there is any further information which the Board can furnish to the noble Earl, they will be glad to do so, especially if he would indicate to them what he would desire to have stated.
§ LORD BELPERMy Lords, before this discussion closes I should like to say a few words on behalf of some of the county councils who are most seriously affected by this Circular. No doubt, as the noble Viscount has said, it may be difficult to give all the details asked for in this Return without getting very full information from the county councils, but it seems to me that before a Circular of this character was issued it was the duty of the Board of Education to form at all events some sort of idea as to what cost they were going to throw on the ratepayers in consequence of this change in the practice with regard to the staffing of schools.
This Circular was issued at a singularly inopportune moment, namely, the very day after an important deputation had been received by the Prime Minister with regard to the serious increase put upon the rates by the Board of Education in the direction of medical inspection. The next day this Circular was issued, and obviously without any very correct information on the part of the Board of Education as to what its effect would be. Although the Board of Education took considerable exception to the estimates that were made by some county councils with regard to the cost, and although they state in the Code that the first estimates were the result, in varying degrees, of misunderstandings of the Circular which have since been removed, it is quite clear from the statement made the other day in the House of Commons by the President of the Board of Education that he recognises that, at least as far as counties are concerned, a very serious and heavy charge will be put upon the rates.
The noble Viscount said it must be assumed, as so few authorities took the trouble to send in estimates, that there could not be any very great cause of complaint amongst local education authorities. But what is the case? Mr. Runciman stated in the House of Commons the other day that 598 the Board had received forty-one official estimates from local education authorities, but out of that number twenty-seven came from county councils, who altogether number only sixty-three. Therefore, without being especially asked nearly half the county councils sent in estimates with regard to the more or less serious charge that would be put upon them, and I find that amongst those estimates which have been accepted by the Board of Education as formed on a proper basis, there are more than one which will put considerably more than a penny extra rate upon the particular county. In fact, the President of the Board of Education admitted himself that he found that—
in the case of the counties the cost works out in terms of rates more heavily than in the case of county boroughs or urban districts,and he mentioned himself, as an instance, East Suffolk, which he said would work out at about a penny rate. I find, with regard to East Suffolk, that the calculation which is accepted by the Board of Education is that an extra charge of £3,575 per annum, to start with, will be put on the rates. A penny rate produces £2,948; therefore it is considerably more than a penny rate that is being pat on this one county. But I have particulars, which I believe have also been accepted by the Board of Education, with regard to the Lindsey division of Lincolnshire. The Board of Education recognise that the initial increase in the Lindsey division of Lincolnshire will be about £4,600 per annum. A penny rate in this division produces £4,676. There, again, there is a further penny put on the rates at a moment when there have been the greatest complaints possible of the continual charges placed on the county council.Let me make clear the position which, on behalf of the County Councils Association, I wish to take up. I entirely accept the statement made at the beginning of Paragraph 3 of the Code, that the policy of these changes, from an educational point of view, has met with universal approval by local authorities and other bodies and persons concerned with education. Our contention is not at all that we object to the educational effect of this Circular. No doubt it will be of very great advantage to the children of the schools in the future; but we are placed in a very difficult position by the constant practice, more especially 599 of the Board of Education but of other Departments as well, of, when they find it desirable to introduce some new policy, placing the charge upon the rates. And they do it at a time when the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Minister for Education have declared, in perfectly clear terms, that they think the ratepayers of counties have very great cause of complaint and that they ought to be relieved of some of the rates now put upon them. I do hope that this matter will be further considered with regard to the counties.
I quite admit that in the case of a large number of authorities there is very little difficulty. Where you have very large schools close to one another there is little difficulty in rearranging the number of scholars so as to comply with the regulations in this Circular without having to make any financial charge on the borough; but that is not the case in counties, especially in large counties with a scattered population and a large number of small rural schools; and it does seem to me that, considering the very strong feeling which has been aroused lately in those counties with regard to the extra charges put upon them, some more consideration should be given to cases which entirely differ from cases of boroughs and urban councils. We are placed in a very difficult position indeed. We all admit that this scheme should be carried out, but the thing we really object to is that the charge should be put on the rates and not borne out of Imperial funds. I know it is always said, in answer to us, that it is impossible to find the money in any other way, and that the ratepayer is the sole resort. I understand that the Board of Education are going, at a very early date, to receive a deputation, particularly from the County Councils Association, who, of course, will represent the case of the councils, and I do venture to ask the noble Viscount to use what influence he can to impress upon the Board that it is only fair that more consideration should be given to these particular county authorities, and that, smarting under injustice as they are now, they should not have a further financial burden placed upon them.
THE EARL OF ONSLOWMy Lords, perhaps I ought to offer an apology to the noble Viscount and to the House for not having made any remarks prefatory to moving the Motion which I have placed 600 on the Paper, but I did not do so for two reasons. In the first place, I raised this question a month or two ago in your Lordships' House, and I dwelt at that time very fully upon the objections taken to Circular No. 709, which has now for all practical purposes been superseded by the Code for 1909; and, in the second place, I rather anticipated that I might have received from the noble Viscount opposite a more favourable answer to my Motion, and that much of the information for which I asked would be furnished by the Government.
The noble Viscount says that the difficulty in the way of granting the Return is the great labour which would devolve upon the local authorities concerned. Well, my Lords, I should not have put the Notice on the Paper if I had not first of all ascertained that it was not outside the bounds of the energy of a local education authority to obtain all these returns, and I think the noble Viscount will bear me out when I say that this and more than I have asked for has already been obtained by the County Council of Gloucestershire, and very likely by other of the twenty-seven county councils to which he referred. This is not a light matter at all. The noble Lord who has just spoken said that in many cases it would mean an additional penny to the rates. I venture to think that, where an additional penny is necessary to carry out the Circular of a Government Department it is not too much for the Government Department to ask the county councils concerned to prepare a return showing what, in their opinion, would be the cost in their own districts.
I venture to enter a very respectful, but, at the same time, a very serious protest against the growing practice on the part of Government Departments of putting heavy burdens upon the rates. Some time ago it was boldly enunciated that the ratepayer and the taxpayer were the same person. I am glad to think that His Majesty's Ministers admit now that the ratepayer and the taxpayer are two very different people indeed, and it certainly does not seem to me to be right or equitable, or in accordance with the principles of our constitutional government, that the representatives of one set of persons namely, the taxpayers, should put burdens on the representatives of another set of persons, namely, the ratepayers. The 601 noble Viscount has said that such information as the Board can obtain shall be laid upon the Table of the House. I do not know when that will be, and I do not quite know how soon they intend to bring into force the provisions of the Code of 1909; but I would venture to point out that this Circular was issued in a very sudden manner. It was not issued until after the county councils had prepared their estimates for this year, and I think it would be an act of justice on the part, of the Department if they could see their way to postpone the operation of this alteration in the staffing of schools until August, 1910. That would give an opportunity to county councils to include the cost in their estimates for next year, and we should really know what would be the increased cost that would have to be incurred.
There are a great many supplementary teachers now being employed in these schools, who, under the proposals of the Board of Education, will have to give place to others. So far as I am aware, in most cases these supplementary teachers have given every satisfaction, and I venture to think that another mitigation of the burden the Board is putting on the ratepayers might be found in allowing these supplementary teachers who have proved adequate to the duties they have to perform to remain so long as the local, education authority wish to retain their services. In any case, I think that before the local education authorities are called upon to go to this great expense, and before Parliament allows the Code to pass, Parliament is entitled to know what the cost will be to the local authorities concerned; and I venture to hope that the noble Viscount will urge his Department not to carry the provisions of Circular 709 into effect until Parliament has had an opportunity of judging what will be the increase of the burden that will be put on the local authorities.
§ LORD CLIFFORD OF CHUDLEIGHMy Lords, I think that the answer which has been given to the noble Earl's Motion is a very striking example of the way in which Government Departments, the Board of Education in particular, are apt to carry on their business. When a Government Department is about to issue regulations which involve the spending of money, it is customary for them, first of all, to consult those whose duty it is to find the money 602 necessary to carry out those regulations; but with regard to local authorities Government Departments seem to think there is no such responsibility upon them. I should have thought that the information for which the noble Earl has asked is precisely that information which ought to have been in the hands of the Department before they issued an Order of this kind at all. When the management of elementary and other education was given to the county council we were under the impression that, being the authority that had to raise the rate, we would be consulted before the duty of raising a rate was imposed upon us; but the Board of Education now think that without the necessary information, without any information, in fact, to guide them as to the way in which their regulations will affect rating, they are in a position to issue these regulations. This is an extremely good instance of the necessity for making inquiries beforehand. In many districts it may be found that the actual staffing of the schools differs very little from what the Board desire to get at. But the county presents difficulties in the way of making these regulations applicable to some of the smaller schools in the area without involving a very considerable amount of expense. The county councils do not complain of the aim and object of the regulations. What we complain of is the way in which these regulations are issued without any consultation with those who have to raise the rate, as to the way in which the burden would fall lightest on the county and the machinery by which it would be arrived at with the least expense. We feel that as we are the authority which has to find the money we have a right to be consulted in the matter.
§ VISCOUNT WOLVERHAMPTONMy Lords, I wish to make one or two remarks in reply. I think I may point out the impracticability of consulting all the local education authorities in the country as to what steps they would propose for raising the money necessary for improving the state of elementary education in this country. It would be opening a controversy which would, I think, be absolutely worthless, and at the same time would create a great deal of confusion and mischief. I am in entire sympathy with noble Lords opposite with reference to the unsatisfactory relations between Imperial and local taxation, and I think the sooner that grave public question is settled the 603 better. I think my colleagues in another place have not shown themselves indifferent to diminishing the burden upon local authorities, for, unless I am mistaken, proposals have been made or will be made by which a large branch of the proposed new taxation is to go to the local authorities.
§ VISCOUNT WOLVERHAMPTONThat may be an aggravation. I only wish to show that the Government are not indifferent to the unsatisfactory apportionment of public help which is given to local authorities. This is one of the questions which no Government can allow to stand over for any long period. There is constant conflict in consequence of the unfair—I do not shrink from using the word—apportionment as between local and Imperial taxation. With reference to this specific matter, my right hon. friend said in the other House last week—
I should be one of the last to say that I thought the State was making a sufficient contribution towards the cost of elementary education, but to give a grant in respect of this reform would be deliberately unjust to the best authorities, for remember that the standard I have set up is not a fantastic standard evolved out of my head or created by educational enthusiasts, but it is a standard which is surpassed by many of the education authorities in this country.I think the sentiments there expressed by my right hon. friend should act as an encouragement to the deputation which will wait upon him, and to which reference has been made, and I can promise, on his behalf, that he will give their representations the greatest consideration. Beyond that I have no authority to go.
§ THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRYMy Lords, I am sure we all heard with approval and satisfaction the last remarks of the noble Viscount who has just sat down. As a past Minister for Education I naturally recognise the desire of the Board to improve the system of education throughout the country, but I feel that in order to attain that end they had not fully considered the extent of the expense which is placed on the local authorities. When I was at the Board of Education I was exceedingly careful to avoid any operation that might involve fresh expense to the ratepayers without having carefully considered what that expenditure would be. I cannot but sympathise with the Board in their desire to im- 604 prove the system of teaching, but I also feel that my noble friend was perfectly justified in asking the Department to find out from the local authorities what the expense would be before they made a hard and fast rule in absolute ignorance of the cost, and my noble friend Lord Belper has pointed out that the inquiry was not impossible.
§ LORD BELPEREstimates have been already made in respect to a certain number of counties.
§ THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRYIf that could be done by certain local authorities I cannot quite understand why it could not be done generally. Would it not, therefore, be well for the proposal of my noble friend who has moved this Motion to be considered, and the matter deferred till next year, or the year after, which would give time for arriving at some accurate idea of the burden which will be thrown on the shoulders of the ratepayers?
§ THE LORD PRIVY SEAL AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (THE EARL OF CREWE)My Lords, I only rise with reference to one point made by the noble Marquess who has just spoken. He asked why my noble friend behind me, the Lord President of the Council, objected to a universal return. The objection of the Department, as I take it, to a universal return is that it does not seem reasonable in a very large number of cases, where the requirements of the Code are actually exceeded, to compel those local authorities to make a return of the very elaborate nature for which the noble Earl asks. The assumption, I take it, of the Board of Education is that by now they have received a return from all those counties who consider themselves most prejudicially, or likely to be most prejudicially, affected, and I understand that a Return stating their estimate, and the criticisms of the Board of Education in cases where they do not absolutely accept that estimate, will be laid by my noble friend. I should have thought that this covered all the necessary ground. I confess I do not see why other local authorities who make no complaint, and, as a matter of fact, will not be affected at all, should be compelled to join in compiling an enormous Blue-book containing information which apparently is of no value to anybody. I am not at the Board of Education, and, therefore, am not competent to answer the noble Lord's question as to 605 whether the whole of this matter could not be postponed for a period of more than a year. Speaking without special knowledge, I think that must surely depend on the number of cases in which any grievance can be said to exist. If it is found that in the case of a large proportion of the authorities this Circular, admitted by the noble Marquess and by other noble Lords who have spoken to be in itself an educational advance, is to work smoothly and without cost, it does seem a serious misfortune that its operation should be postponed on account of a comparatively few instances, the difficulty of which it may be possible to meet in a different way, and postponed until we are able to deal with the whole question of local taxation, which, as we all know, is a gigantic subject. I was glad to hear from the noble Earl that he does not intend to press his Motion. I have merely made these few observations in order to make clear our position.
THE EARL OF ONSLOWI do not wish to press the Motion, but no doubt the noble Earl will not complain if I ask for supplementary information after I see what is presented by the noble Viscount the Lord President.
§ Motion, by leave, withdrawn.