HL Deb 31 March 1908 vol 187 cc247-55
*THE EARL OF DARTMOUTH

rose to ask the Under-Secretary of State for War—(1) What assistance, if any, will be given to County Associations in the matter of recruiting by the military authorities to enable them to raise the number of recruits required for the various arms of the new force? (2) When the new units are actually raised, and the military authorities are compelled to retrench original members of the County Associations to make room for the representatives of the new arms, in order to avoid this invidious and unpleasant necessity, will the Secretary of State consider the advisability of having a supplemental list? (3) In the event of a range situated in one county, which owing to the disbandment of a unit in that county may no longer be required, where private contributions have been employed to secure the range, will compensation be given? If arrangements can be made to transfer the range to another county, will the two commanding officers of the units concerned be entitled to agree on the terms of transfer, or will such arrangements be entrusted to the County Associations or the Army Council? (4) The County Associations have to provide horses for ordinary training. The country has been partitioned by the military authorities into suitable areas for the purchase of horses in the event of mobilisation. What will be the relative position of the County Associations and the military purchasers? Will the military authorities purchase both for the Regular Army and the Territorial Force, or will the County Associations be expected to find horses either by hire or purchase for their own troops? (5) What is a "unit?"

The noble Earl said; My Lords, as the period of the existence of the old Volunteer system is rapidly coming to an end, I venture to think that the Questions I desire to put to the noble Earl the Under-Secretary are of considerable importance. My first Question refers to what assistance, if any, is to be given to the County Associations in their task of raising the recruits necessary for the various arms of the Territorial Force, and I think it is obvious that every possible assistance should be given to those who have undertaken to raise these new arms if they are to carry out satisfactorily the duties they have so willingly undertaken. Sergeant-instructors are now responsible for recruiting for the Regulars, and, however good a sergeant-instructor may be as such, he is liable to be sent back to his regiment if his efforts as a recruiting sergeant are not successful. That is a system which I hope will not be maintained in the future, because in the new Territorial Force he would obviously be under two masters; and there is a strong objection, in certain parts of the country, on the part of village mothers to allow their sons to join the Reserve Forces if they can help it, because they feel that if the sergeant-instructor once gets hold of them they will pass them on to the Line. It would be instructive for us to know whose servant the sergeant-instructor is going to be, and we desire to know whether any professional assistance will be given to the County Associations in the matter of recruiting.

My second Question has reference to the County Associations, and the point I raise will become an important one at a very early date. I hope the noble Earl appreciates my use of the word "retrench," because that, I think, accurately describes the position at the present time. I understand, from an answer given in another place by the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies, that retrenchment may mean retirement, while hon. Members on the other side of the House are of opinion that retrenchment must mean discharge. When the new units are actually raised and room has to be found on the County Associations for the representatives of the new arms, the original members of those Associations will have either to be retired or discharged; and as it is very important to secure the assistance of as many as possible of those gentlemen who will have taken an active part in the early formation of the Territorial Force, it is obviously undesirable that they should be turned off the County Associations just at the moment when their experience is beginning to be of value. What I would impress upon the noble Earl is this, that the County Associations should be given the opportunity, if they so desire, of having a supernumerary list composed of the representatives of the new units, who will have all the privileges of members of the Associations, who will attend the meetings and speak, and vote, and gradually be absorbed as vacancies occur.

The third Question standing in my name on the Paper is one of some little personal difficulty. It concerns ranges, and I ask it not as a member of a County Association, but in the disembodied spirit of a disbanded colonel of a Volunteer regiment.

The next Question is a very important one, and refers to the provision of horses. Two years ago chief constables were asked to make inquiries in their respective districts about available horses. The request was repeated last year. By this scheme the provision of horses for the Territorial Force is thrown on the County Associations. A further communication has now been made suggesting a division of the county into areas for horse buying in case of mobilisation—that is to say, apparently, for providing the necessary horses for the Regular Army on sudden mobilisation. I should like to ask what will be the position respectively of the Regular Army and the Territorial Force when mobilisation takes place. It has been pointed out, on more than one occasion, that it is absolutely important to have horses that have been trained to perform the duties required of them. The County Associations have to provide horses for ordinary training. Will the War Office representative be able to take all those horses for the Regular Army on mobilisation? It is just as well that we should know how we stand. We quite recognise, of course, that the Regular Army must come first, but we wish to know in what position we stand.

My last Question is—What is a "unit"? The noble Earl the Under-Secretary has written to me privately regarding this Question, and has asked whether I have anything at the back of my mind. I have not. From the civilian point of view a unit is one. I have a little book on tactics; I do not know whether it is very reliable, but it appears from it that, from the military point of view, a unit is any number of troops exceeding one. From the civilian point of view a mounted soldier would be a unit. In the event of misadventure in the field and the temporary separation of the soldier from his horse, would he and his horse become two units? As the County Associations are to be paid by results, and as those results are to depend on the number of units raised, it is obviously important for the Associations to know if they may themselves define what a unit is. If so, I can undertake to say there will be no want of money. It is important to know, for instance, whether a half battalion raised in a particular district is to be a unit, or whether a company is to be a unit. Of what exactly will a unit consist? We had a conversation in your Lordships' House the other day about a gun allotted to Staffordshire and Shropshire. Is that gun a unit? I understand that it has arrived in Staffordshire, but without limber and without stores. Still, the commanding officer thinks well of that gun, and is of opinion that if he could get the other eleven complete at an early date he would be able to do some excellent work and show Lord. Roberts that he was wrong in the view he took. Here is one gun allotted to Staffordshire and Shropshire. While at the present time Shropshire and Staffordshire have a joint brigade of Garrison Artillery, under this scheme Shropshire is to be in one division, in one command, and in one regimental district, and Staffordshire is to be completely separated. Yet when I ask a question on the subject the noble Earl tells me that one gull has been sent to Shropshire and Staffordshire. It rather indicates that he does not know what is the foundation of this scheme. The men concerned are now waiting for information, and if the War Office could only forget its traditions and let us know fully what is proposed we believe we could make the Territorial Force a success.

THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH

My Lords, before I deal with the Questions put to me by the noble Earl, perhaps I may be allowed to congratulate him on having got part of his gun. I can assure him the other parts will follow very quickly. As regards the first Question, in the regulations which will be published almost immediately, officers commanding Regular recruiting areas are ordered to give all the assistance they can in this matter, and Regular officers, when such a course is most convenient, are instructed to attest and finally approve recruits. As regards the second Question, I think the suggestion of my noble friend is rather an impracticable one. A man must be either a member or not a member of the Association. If, hereafter, we desire, as I daresay we shall, to raise an increased number of units from any particular county, we shall have to increase the numbers of that county's Association by framing a new scheme which will in due course be presented to Parliament, as laid down in the Act.

In reply to the third Question, if the range is private property, of which the corps has only had the use, it remains private property; but if the range in question is corps property—that is, property vested in the commanding officer of the corps, which has been partially provided out of private subscriptions—then all corps property of a disbanded unit reverts to the Secretary of State; and unless the private funds were distinctly advanced and secured as a loan no obligation to repay the contributions will be recognised. That is provided for by Section 8 of the Military Lands Act, 1892. As regards the latter part of the Question, the Secretary of State, in whom the range is vested on disbandment, can make such arrangements as he thinks fit whether for the transfer to another County Association or for any other purpose. I need hardly say that in such a case, he would, as far as possible, consult the views of those locally interested. In reply to the fourth Question, the provision of horses is a very difficult one, but the War Office, in conjunction with the Board of Agriculture, are endeavouring to draw up a scheme which will help us in regard to this matter. As regards the specific Question asked, I can say that the military authorities will only purchase for the Regular Army. The County Associations will be expected to provide for their own troops.

As to the meaning, of the word "unit" an exact definition is not easy to give. In its ordinary military sense, the word is a somewhat elastic term, depending for its precise significance on the context in which it is used. In the King's Regulations the word is used to denote an infantry battalion or depot, a cavalry regiment or depot, a battery or depot of Royal Horse or Field Artillery, a company or depot of Royal Garrison Artillery, a field troop, bridging train, telegraph or balloon company, etc., in the Royal Engineers. It is used to denote a company in the departmental services like the Army Service Corps. It is, therefore, applied to the battalion of infantry, the regiment of cavalry, the battery of artillery, etc. To speak of the County Association raising units is to imply that the Army Council, through the general officer commanding-in-chief, informed the county that in the general scheme of the Territorial Force the quota of troops the particular county was expected to furnish was so many infantry battalions, so many batteries of horse or field artillery, so many companies of Army Service Corps, etc.

The War Office has issued a financial memorandum to Associations which fully explains the basis on which what is called the establishment grant is to be paid. In each arm of the service the organisation taken as the basis of payment is either the actual unit laid down in the general scheme of requirements or a sub-division of that unit. For instance, Staffordshire is asked to raise, say, four battalions of infantry, or thirty-two companies (eight companies per battalion). The establishment grant is £100 per infantry company. This county would, therefore, receive £3,200 in respect of its quota of infantry. Supposing that the county were asked to raise inter alia a battery of heavy artillery and ammunition column, according to the financial memorandum the grant for this unit would be £200. Supposing again the county were asked to raise a Yeomanry regiment, the county would be paid on the basis of £95 per squadron which is the sub-division of the mounted regiment.

THE EARL OF DARTMOUTH

I understand that no extra grant is to be given in cases where half batteries are raised in one place and half batteries in another? Can the noble Earl tell me what penalty attaches to a chairman of a County Association if he passively resists the Act?

THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH

I cannot state off-hand what would be the penalty in such a case. I think it is a matter which should be referred to the Law Officers of the Crown. With regard to the other point referred to by the noble Earl, I am afraid we cannot make any extra allowance on that ground.

LORD LOVAT

The noble Earl, in replying to Lord Dartmouth's fourth Question, stated that the War Office, in conjunction with the Board of Agriculture, were drawing up a scheme; but that scheme will affect horses in the future. The point on which I understand Lord Dartmouth wants information is what the Associations are to do meanwhile with respect to the providing of horses. There has only been one circular issued as yet to the County Associations on the subject, and in that circular the Associations are asked to do nothing at all in procuring horses until the whole demand of the Army has been satisfied. The Army requires 60,000 horses, and according to the rate at which they were obtained during the Boer War, it will take something like nine months to realise that number. Are the County Associations to do nothing meanwhile? The registration is done, not as it should be by officers commanding the Artillery or Yeomanry, or by men having some knowledge of horses, but actually by constabulary. A local policeman goes round and asks people if they have horses suitable for the Regular Army. The way the registration is done at present is a perfect farce. I hope we shall be assured that some consideration is being given to this important question. I think, also, that steps should be taken at once, by Order in Council, to make the representation of the different units on the Associations more exact.

THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH

As regards the latter point, that is a question I cannot answer off-hand. Perhaps the noble Lord will communicate with me as to any case in which, in his opinion, a change should be made, and I will see that the matter is considered. As to the registration of horses, I have never made any secret of the serious and unsatisfactory condition in which we are placed in regard to that matter. But the point alluded to by Lord Lovat did not arise out of the Questions on the Paper; and if the noble Lord likes to put down a Question to be asked some time after Easter, I shall, perhaps, be able to give him some information.

THE EARL OF DARTMOUTH

Is the noble Earl the President of the Board of Agriculture prepared to tell us anything about the progress of the scheme referred to by Lord Portsmouth?

THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (Earl CARRINGTON)

I never like to say anything without being certain that I am absolutely accurate. I therefore ask my noble friend to extend to me his indulgence by allowing me to put off making a statement for a short time. I can assure him that things are progressing very favourably, and I hope ere long to be able to make an announcement which will be satisfactory not only to my noble friend but to the House generally.