§ House in Committee (according to order).
§ [The Earl of ONSLOW in the Chair.]
§ Clause 1:—
§ Drafting Amendments agreed to.
§ Clause, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 2:—
§ THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (Earl CARRINGTON) ,in moving an Amendment to enable any officer of the Local Government Board to take samples, said that the object of the Amendment was simply to give the inspectors of the Local Government Board power to enter the factories, as it was thought better to stop the addition of harmful preservatives 225 at the factories rather than by taking samples at the shops when the article had been distributed from the factory to the retailers.
§
Amendment moved—
In page 2, line 13, after the word 'Fisheries' to insert the words 'or of the Local Government Board.'"—(Earl Carrington.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 3 agreed to.
§ Clause 4:—
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGHasked whether the noble Lord in charge of the Bill would explain why milk-blended butter, which was to be known under some name or another to be invented by the Board of Agriculture, and which almost by universal consent seemed to be a very deleterious and objectionable substance, was to be allowed to have more water in it than ordinary good butter, or even than margarine. He knew that it was rather a controversial point, but he would like to hear from the noble Lord exactly the reasons which had induced the Government to give way on behalf of that particular substance.
§ EARL CARRINGTONaccept the definition that I can hardly this stuff is deleterious and harmful, but I may perhaps answer the noble Lord's question in this way: The limit of water allowed in butter is 16 per cent. and the limit allowed in margarine is 16 per cent. also. Margarine is different stuff from butter; it is a manufactured article and is completely different from butter. But if you limited the amount of moisture or of water in this milk-blended butter, or whatever it may be called in days to come, to 16 per cent., it would not be milk-blended butter at all, it would be simply butter itself. Therefore the only difference between milk-blended butter and butter is that the milk-blended butter is allowed to have 24 per cent. of moisture, while the percentage of moisture in butter is confined to 16 per cent. If the water was pumped or squeezed out of this milk-blended butter it would become butter.
§ * THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEAre we to understand that the only 226 difference between the two substances is that the one contains 8 per cent. more water than the other?
§ EARL CARRINGTONThis manufactured stuff is butter with milk pumped into it—squeezed into it—and of course in milk there is a great percentage of water, and that makes this manufactured article different from butter. That is the only difference between butter and milk-blended butter. Milk-blended butter is butter with milk blended with it, pumped into it, and the consequence is of course that there is more moisture in it than there would be in ordinary butter.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGHsaid that he was somewhat comforted by the speech of the noble Lord, because he had received a letter that morning which informed him that milk-blended butter was mainly composed of cocoanut oil. He was glad to hear on the authority of the Board of Agriculture that that was not the case. With regard to the other part of the noble Lord's speech, if there was really no difference between butter and milk-blended butter excepting the extra 8 per cent. of water in the latter, it seemed to him the strongest argument for putting them all on the same footing.
§ Clause 4 agreed to.
§ Clause 5:—
§ EARL CARRINGTONThe next Amendment which stands in my name is one for the insertion of a new paragraph (j) in Section 5 to the effect that butter, margarine, or milk-blended butter containing a preservative prohibited by any regulation made under the Act, or an amount of preservative in excess of the limit allowed by any such regulation, should be included in the list of articles the importation of which is made an offence by Section 1 of the Sale of Food and Drugs Act, 1899. Preservatives are certain acids and other things which are put into this stuff to preserve it, and the object of the Amendment is to prevent boracic acid and other preservatives being put in to a dangerous extent.
§
Amendment moved—
In page 3, line 36, after the word 'purpose' to insert the following new paragraph:—'(j) Butter, margarine, or milk-blended
227
butter, which contains a preservative prohibited by any regulation made under this Act or an amount of a preservative in excess of the limit allowed by any such regulation.'"—(Earl Carrington.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 5, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 6:—
§ EARL CARRINGTONI move to leave out the words "curd in samples," and to insert the words "any milk-blended solid other than milk-fat in any sample." That is a technical Amendment, and is intended to give the Board power to determine the amount of either milk-casein or milk-sugar, which in butter shall be regarded as presumptive evidence of adulteration, and the Amendment is moved because it is not clear that the word "curd" includes both these articles.
§
Amendment moved—
In page 4, line 32, to leave out the words 'curd in samples,' and to insert the words 'any milk-blended solid other than milk-fat in any sample.'"—(Earl Carrington.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ EARL CARRINGTONI also move, in line 33, to leave out from the word "butter" to the end of the clause. There is a proposal to substitute a new clause for the provisions left out.
§
Amendment moved—
In line 33, to leave out from the word 'butter' to the end of the clause.—(Earl Carrington.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 6, as amended, agreed to.
§ After Clause 6.
§ EARL CARRINGTONI beg to move to insert a new clause. The words proposed to be added seem very formidable, but there really is nothing in them. The clause is only re-drafted and made much longer, and is intended to carry out the intention of paragraph (b) of the provisions of Clause 6. Paragraph (b) was accepted as an Amendment on the Report of the Commons, but it is not very clearly 228 expressed, and the Government propose to insert this new clause in its place.
§
Amendment moved—
After Clause 6 to insert the following new clause:—
§ New clause agreed to.
§ Clause 7:—
§ EARL CARRINGTONI beg to move after the word "margarine" to insert the words "or on any package containing margarine, or on any label attached to a parcel of margarine." That is to say, the printed word "margarine" is to be inserted on any package or label as well as on the wrapper in which the margarine is actually handed to the customer in the shop.
§
Amendment moved—
In page 5, line 7, after the word 'margarine' to insert the words 'or on any package containing margarine or on any label attached to a parcel of margarine.'"—(Earl Carrington.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 7, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 8 agreed to.
§ Clause 9—
§ EARL CARRINGTONI move to leave out the words "used as a description of 229 or in connection with milk-blended butter" and to insert "approved as a name under which milk-blended butter may be imported or dealt with." This clause is intended to limit the power of the Board to approve all these fancy names. As the clause stands, it does not limit the Board's power in the matter of milk-blended butter.
§
Amendment moved—
In page 6, lines 2 and 3, to leave out 'used as a description of, or in connection with milk-blended butter' and insert 'approved as a name under which milk-blended butter may be imported or dealt with.'"—(Earl Carrington.)
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGHDoes the noble Lord intend to christen this stuff himself, or to remit it to a Committee as has been suggested, or can he give us some idea of what sort of title is to be conferred upon this stuff before we lose control altogether of the Bill?
§ EARL CARRINGTONI have had a sort of informal meeting with noble Lords opposite, but we have not come to any definite arrangement as to the name. I shall be only too happy to meet any suggestions that may be thrown out by noble Lords opposite.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 10 agreed to.
§ Clause 11:—
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN ,in moving an Amendment excepting the administrative county of London from the operation of Clause 11, said that perhaps the best way of explaining the meaning of the Amendment was to road the clause as it at present stood—
Section 8 of the Margarine Act, 1887, shall have effect as if the words 'inspector of weights and measures' were inserted after the word 'nuisances.'Section 8 of the Margarine Act of 1887 was to the effect that margarine and so on that was imported was to be duly consigned as margarine—And it shall be lawful for any officer of His Majesty's Customs or Inland Revenue, or any medical officer of health, inspector of nuisances, or police constable authorised under Section 136 of the Food and Drugs Act to procure samples for analysis.230 One would have supposed, therefore, that there were surely sufficient officers already who were entitled to ask for samples. But in the House of Commons it appeared that in Grand Committee—of which there was no report—this Clause 11 was inserted, the result of which was that in addition to all the officers he had mentioned, the inspector of weights and measures was authorised to ask for samples of margarine. What the special connection of the Inspector of Weights and Measures was with margarine and milk-blended butter he did not know; all he could say was that he was very glad he did not sell either margarine or milk-blended butter, because there were five or six different persons who would be authorised to go into his shop and ask for samples. His natural inclination would have been to move to strike out the clause altogether, on the ground that there were plenty of persons already authorised for the purpose. Surely police officers, medical officers of health, and others, who were already authorised were quite sufficient to ask for samples, but oven presuming that on the general question there was some reason for the addition of inspectors of weights and measures he thought there was a special reason why that should not be done in the case of the administrative county of London. In all other boroughs the inspector of weights and measures was appointed by the borough council, the same authority which appointed the inspector of nuisances, but in the administrative county of London the inspector of nuisances was appointed by the boroughs and the inspector of weights and measures was appointed by the London County Council; therefore if their Lordships inserted these words and added no qualification at all, in the administrative county of London they would be creating a duplication of authorities who would have the right to ask for samples. Therefore it seemed to him that, at all events, if they were going to multiply the number of officers who might apply for samples, there was no reason for multiplying the number of authorities who might instruct an officer to call for those samples.
§
Amendment moved—
In page 6, line 19, at the beginning of the clause, to insert 'except in the administrative county of London.'"—(The Earl of Camperdown.)
§ LORD CHEYLESMORE ,in supporting the Amendment, said that in the small boroughs outside London in many instances the same gentleman performed the duties of inspector of nuisances and inspector of foods and drugs as performed the duties of inspector of weights and measures. The clause, as it stood, would no doubt be of great benefit to the small boroughs outside London, but it would on the other hand not be of benefit to the administrative county of London, for the reason that the noble Earl had given. It would introduce a second authority to administer the Act for London. He could not help thinking that that would be a source of great annoyance to the small traders in London, and it meant also increasing the rates. He had never heard any complaint regarding the way in which the duties of these officers were carried out. As their Lordships were probably aware, there were twenty-eight boroughs in London at the present moment, employing some fifty or sixty inspectors of nuisances to carry out the Act, and a proof of the effectual way in which they carried out their duties was the fact that on the average some 5,000 samples of butter and margarine were taken in each year. The other inspectors were appointed by the London County Council, and if they were introduced into the Bill there would be that dual control which he had mentioned. He therefore hoped that the noble Earl the President of the Board of Agriculture would accept the Amendment, alike on the grounds of economy, of the annoyance that would be caused by this dual inspection, and of the friction that might arise between the two local authorities in administering the same Act.
§ EARL CARRINGTONMy Lords, I am rather surprised at Lord Camperdown having brought forward this Amendment, because, if I may be permitted to say so, I should have thought that in his well-regulated mind, if this provision had not been in the Bill, it would have been exactly one of the faults which he would have naturally—and I think quite rightly—found with the Bill itself. This clause practically is only to clear up a doubt in the existing law, and all it attempts to do is to make the law uniform, which I think the noble Earl will acknowledge is a desirable thing in itself. The effect of 232 the noble Lord's Amendment would only be to leave the doubt which exists now still existing in London, and I do not think that he would wish to be the author of such a proposal, or the person who insisted on such a state of things continuing. Every weights and measures inspector in England is qualified to take action under every section of the Sale of Food and Drugs Act of 1889, but not under Section 8 of the Margarine Act of 1887, with regard to which there is a doubt as to his powers Clause 11 removes this anomaly, and if this Amendment is accepted, as I said before, it would continue the anomaly as far as London is concerned. The object of the Amendment, the noble Earl told us, is to prevent the London County Council from employing their weights and measures inspectors to take samples in London in place of the inspectors of the boroughs.
§ EARL CARRINGTONIn addition to the inspectors of the boroughs. As the noble Earl said, the inspectors of weights and measures are appointed by the London County Council, while in boroughs they are appointed by the other authorities, and I can assure the noble Lord, who has just done two years such good service as Mayor of Westminster, that there is in no way any attempt to promote friction or cause any annoyance to those boroughs which are doing such signal service for London. The only object of the clause is to clear up the doubt which exists at present in London, and I hope in the interests not only of the borough councils, but of the London County Council itself, that the noble Earl will not press or insist upon his Amendment.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNassured the noble Lord that words failed him to express his sense of the great personal compliments which had been paid to him, but in spite of those compliments he was afraid that the noble Lord had not quite appreciated the object of his Amendment. The noble Earl had said that the words were put in solely to do away with a doubt. His (Lord Camperdown's) objection was of quite a different kind. It was 233 that the words created a confusion and a conflict of jurisdiction. It was quite true that so far as all the other boroughs of the country were concerned the clause merely authorised asking for samples by another of their officers. But in London, as he had already pointed out, the effect of the clause would be quite different.
§ Clause 11, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clauses 12 and 13 agreed to.
§ Standing Committee negatived. The Report of Amendments to be received To-morrow; and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 164.)