HL Deb 12 November 1906 vol 164 cc919-21
*THE LORD BISHOP OF WAKE-FIELD

My Lords, I rise to ask the Lord President of the Council whether he will furnish details of representative cases in which voluntary schools held under charitable trusts have been transferred since 1902 to local education authorities for valuable consideration; showing in particular the amount of rent paid to the trustees per head of accommodation or average attendance, the character of the trusts in reference to the classification contained in the recent return of trust deeds, and the nature of the instrument under which the transfer was made.

My object in putting this question is a simple one. It is to have a little information before us as to the practice of the Charity Commission or the Board of Education in dealing with schools held under charitable trusts for educational purposes when they are purchased or hired by the local education authority. The whole question of trust deeds has been under review at the Board of Education, and the result has been a most valuable Return with a masterly preface. That preface makes an attempt to classify these trusts in regard to the amount of purely educational purpose contained in them. That attempt has been made with an ability and clearness which leave little to be desired. But it confesses on almost every page the fact that no classification can be scientific, as the trusts themselves are so infinitely various. I do not wish to go into the matter now, but, as precedents become important, it is well that we should have some information as to the lines hitherto followed by local education authorities and by the Board of Education. I am not asking for a complete Return on this subject nor for cases occurring before 1902, but for details of some representative cases. There has been a certain amount of local controversy on this subject, especially in Lancashire, where there is an apparent contrast between the treatment of Nonconformist schools and Church schools. It appears that the Lancashire County Council and the local education authorities of some of the Lancashire boroughs are spending considerable sums in the hire of schools, and it so happens that these schools belong chiefly to Nonconformist bodies. The Lancashire County Council, I am told, are spending about £2,000 a year for this purpose; the council of Accrington, £650; the council of Blackburn, £1,000; and the council of Darwen, £000. Some information, if it could be given, might allay this controversy, and be useful and reassuring to trustees and owners of schools elsewhere. Probably a few cases from Lancashire would be useful. Then the West Riding local education authority published terms of transfer and were anxious to get all voluntary schools to agree. It would be interesting to know how many schools were transferred under this general agreement. The most rev. Primate said the other day that rent was a comparatively unimportant matter, in view of the far greater issues affected by this Bill. Quite true. But most of our Church of England trusts are inseparably bound up with religious teaching and cannot be divided without the main idea of the trust being destroyed. It is important to provide for the main object, and in some cases rent would be the proper mode of making that provision. I believe we are in just hands in our great State Departments. But it is often a help even to them to have certain principles laid down expressly; and if it were understood that in the case of these schools held under charitable trusts the rent was to be applied in accordance with the trust deed for the specific religious teaching intended by the original donors, it might both allay some uneasiness in certain quarters and assist towards an amicable adjustment of what are often burning questions in the localities concerned.

THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (The Earl of CREWE)

My Lords, we are very happy, as far as possible, to meet the wishes of the right rev. Prelate. I hope that a Return, which I trust will, in the main, meet his wishes, will be ready to be laid on the Table by Wednesday, or, at any rate, by Thursday. In these circumstances I am sure the right rev. Prelate will forgive me if I do not follow him in the matters of detail which he mentioned. If, however, at a later time he wishes to raise any point on the Return as it appears, I shall be very happy to deal with it.