LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNEMy Lords, I rise to ask His Majesty's Government whether it is a fact that at the annual dinner in connection with the Irish National Teachers' Association, held at Sligo on 26th April, a certain number of teachers left the room when the health of His Majesty the King was proposed, and many others refused to rise from their seats to honour the toast; and whether it is the intention of His Majesty's Government to take any steps to prevent such teachers from inculcating disloyalty among the children who attend their schools.
I do not intend to detain your Lordships at any length, but I make no excuse for bringing this matter forward, believing as I do that it is one which may fitly engage the attention of your Lordships' House and the serious consideration of the people of this country. There is no subject to which public attention has been more closely directed during the last few years than that of education. We have been almost led to believe that in education we shall find a panacea for all the ills 1355 to which human flesh is heir, and it is not astonishing that on a subject of such importance we find many differences of opinion. There are some who hold that our system of education has been so improved and brought up to date that it is adapted to meet the requirements of the present generation. There are others who tell us that we have still much to learn from what is being done in foreign countries. There are those who hold that children should be brought up in the faith of their fathers, but there are others who would limit their religious instruction to such portions of Christian faith as recommend themselves to the conscience of Mr. Lloyd-George. But, my Lords, however great the difference may be on all these subjects, there is one point on which all parties in this country are agreed, which will recommend itself equally to the heads of the Roman Catholic Heirarchy and to the most extreme Welsh dissenters, to the right rev. bench and to the leaders of agnosticism, and that is that all the children of this country should be taught to take a pride in the history of the English race, with a confidence in the future of the British Empire and with a loyalty to the gracious Sovereign under whose benignant sway we enjoy a security and a freedom which make us the envy of many foreign nations.
Very different, I regret to say, is the state of feeling across St. George's Channel. Owing to religious differences very little history can be taught, and what little is taught appears to me to consist mainly of a collection of fairy tales of doughty deeds wrought by Erse robber chiefs, who are dignified by the name of Kings and who one by one succumbed to the advance of the hated Saxon. Everywhere you find that England is regarded as the oppressor of Ireland, and England is represented by England's King. I am sure that those noble Lords who hail from the sister Isle will agree with me when I say that we heard of the behaviour of the Irish national teachers at Sligo with more sorrow than surprise. It grieves us, it fills us with resentment, but it causes no astonishment. We are only too accustomed to the rampant disloyalty of our Nationalist fellow-countrymen. We 1356 know that throughout three provinces of Ireland there is hardly an assembly of any kind at which the King's health is proposed. We know that many of the public bodies have had the words, "On His Majesty's Service" removed from their paper and the words "On the Public Service" inscribed in their stead. Worse than that, we know that in many places a black flag was hoisted on the public buildings on the occasion of His Majesty's Coronation; and so I say that though we grieve at this new instance of disloyalty we cannot profess to be surprised at it.
We are often told in England that the Nationalists of Ireland are perfectly loyal, that all they are anxious to obtain is some extension of local government, the right to manage their own as apart from Imperial affairs. But, my Lords, we who live in Ireland know that this is not the case. The words "Loyalist" and "Nationalist" are not interchangeable terms, and the very fons et origo of the demand for Home Rule lies in hatred of England. We are all aware, if I may say so with all respect, that our gracious Sovereigns win golden opinions wherever they go, and Ireland was no exception to the rule. Those with whom they came in contact fell under the magnetic charm, but, after all, the opinions of a life-time are, I fear, not done away with in a moment, and the inborn dislike of this country overcomes ere long all transient impressions. My Lords, if a proof is needed of the truth of my statements, can a better one be found than in the conduct of these national school teachers at the dinner at Sligo? These are no ignorant peasants, blindly led astray by agitators; these are men who have been carefully trained at the expense of the State to teach the coming generation of Irishmen. These men are officials of the State; they are not paid by local bodies. I wish I could inpress this fact on every taxpayer in England and Scotland. It is with their money that these men are paid to inculcate disloyalty among the children of Ireland. For can we doubt that they do teach it?
I do not for a moment accuse every Nationalist schoolmaster in Ireland of disloyalty. I am glad to say that I believe there are many notable exceptions, 1357 but, if you wish to know their view as a body, how can it be better judged than at a dinner held on the occasion of their annual conference? "By their fruits ye shall know them." Teachers now in active employment and in receipt of Government pay may not be very anxious openly to express their views; but may I quote to your Lordships the words of Mr. Seumas Macmanus, for some time a national teacher, in a letter to the Irish Independent, extracts from which appeared in The Times of May 16th. Mr. Macmanus, writing with reference to the custom of drinking the King's health, says that—
The custom has been tolerated too long in Ireland and it is the duty of every Irishman to make active protest.Mr. Macmanus defends the national school teachers who refused to honour the loyal toast at Sligo, and continues—The Irish youth who quits school without realising his duties as a rebel is, or should be, a discredit to his schoolmaster as well as to his country.Mr. Macmanus was himself a national teacher for some years, and he says that during that time his salary was well earned—So far, at least, as the stirring of discontent and the dissemination of rebellions opinions were concerned.Does not this disclose a serious state of affairs? Does not this call for a remedy?I ask His Majesty's Government what they are prepared to do. I cannot venture to advise them. The education of the children of Ireland ought, it appears to me, to be made a powerful factor in the pacification of the country. Unless you, have a loyal population you will never have a reconciled Ireland. We see that nowadays these children are being trained as "rebels," and I personally 'believe that this is being greatly helped by the assistance which is being given in national schools, out of Imperial funds, to revive the long-disused Gaelic language, which is of no earthly practical use to anybody in the world, and which is only made use of by agitation for the purpose of fostering an anti-British feeling. I acknowledge that the task of His Majesty's Government is no easy one, and that drastic measures may, perhaps, be 1358 worse than none at all; but surely some means might be taken to encourage loyalty in the training colleges where these teachers receive their education, and it might be made compulsory for the National Anthem to be taught and sung in all national schools. We are told that we must do our best to propitiate Irish feeling, but in this case English and Scottish feeling must also be considered, for it is with English and Scottish money that these schools are supported, and these teachers are paid. I beg to put the Question which stands in my name.
*THE EARL OF ARRANMy Lords, I venture to trespass on your attention in order to supplement the Question which has been asked by my noble friend. The noble Lord dwelt very fully on the incident as it is reported in the newspapers, and he also commented, very rightly, on the peculiar circumstances that attach to this incident, in that these men accused of disloyalty are schoolmasters having the charge of the future generation of Irishmen in their hands. I think your Lordships will agree with me that youth is the most impressionable part of one's life. The ideas that are imbued in a child are the ideas that remain longer than any other; they are the most deep-rooted and the most difficult to eradicate. We had an object-lesson in South Africa, where I was told over and over again by different Boers that one of the reasons for the great feeling of hatred towards England and the English race was that Dutch-speaking children from their very earliest years were taught in their schools to hate England and the English. Here, if the circumstances are as we are given to understand they are by the Press, we have the very same thing happening at our very door, or, I may say, in our own house. Whatever one's politics may be, whether one be a strong advocate of the policy of Home Rule or an enthusiastic Unionist, as I am, no one can approve of such action as these schoolmasters are accused of.
The noble Lord who called attention to this question said he would not venture to make any suggestion to His Majesty's Government, but I 1359 am going to suggest that they should make full inquiry into this remarkable incident, if only in order that these schoolmasters may have an opportunity of clearing their characters from the serious accusation that has been made. Those who live in Ireland will agree with me that Irishmen are easily led in this matter. In this country a Hyde Park orator may make a speech and say, "Let's go and blow up St. Paul's,' but no one takes any notice of him, and St. Paul's remains. But it is not so in Ireland. Unless notice is taken of inflammatory speeches and strong Government disapproval shown, it is attributed, in the South and West of Ire-and at any rate, not to a policy of clemency but to weakness. I venture most sincerely to hope that we shall hear from His Majesty's Government that they have taken, are taking, or will take, such measures as will lead to full inquiry being made into this incident; land if, unhappily, the accusation is proved to be true, then the schoolmasters should be removed from the positions which by such action they have proved themselves unworthy of filling.
LORD MUSKERRYMy Lords, I disagree with the noble Lord who called attention to this question, for I do not think that hatred of England is really implanted in the hearts of most of my countrymen. They extend a hearty-welcome to English tourists, and I do not think there is really any hatred in Ireland of the "brutal Saxon." Hatred of England does not lie at the root of disloyal demonstrations. The real secret is that these people have found that by agitation, disloyal speeches, and the like, the Government will give in to them, and they will get what they want.
*THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (The Marquess of LONDONDERRY)My Lords, the three noble Lords who have spoken are thoroughly acquainted with Ireland and perfectly qualified to speak on the subject. I confess I followed the speech of my noble friend who put this Question with a certain amount of difficulty. I could not quite gather whether he expected 1360 me to defend the Board of Education from the attacks of Mr. Lloyd-George or confine myself entirely to the Question on the Paper. If he will allow me, I will deal with the Question on the Paper, for I shall have many opportunities in the future of alluding to Mr. Lloyd-George and his line of policy in regard to education in England and Wales. I am certain that the action of those teachers to which the noble Lord has referred will be disapproved by every Member of your Lordships' House, and I was glad to hear from the noble Earl opposite (Lord Arran) that they will be glad to have the opportunity of clearing their characters from the serious accusation that has been made.
THE EARL OF ARRANAll I stated was that I hoped His Majesty's Government would give them an opportunity of doing so.
§ *THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRYI gathered from what the noble Earl said that if they were given an opportunity of clearing themselves they would gladly do so.
THE EARL OF ARRANI have no reason to suppose that they will be able to clear themselves; but it was natural to imagine that, being servants of the Crown, they would be glad of an opportunity of clearing themselves if they could.
§ *THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRYNothing would give me greater pleasure personally than that they should be able to do so. Such action represents the feeling of only a very small minority of the people in Ireland, the vast majority of whom regard the name of their Sovereign not only with respect but with affection since the visit of Their Majesties, to Ireland and their manifestation of interest in the industries and welfare of that country. It is extremely difficult for the Government to obtain information of what really took place at the banquet in question. The only information we have at present is the report in the Sligo Champion, and from the wording of the Question of the noble Lord I have no doubt that it is couched in terms drawn 1361 from that journal. I gather from this journal that a, number of the invited guests, including some clergymen, having observed that the first toast on the printed programme was that of "The King," decided to leave immediately, and they did so, being unwilling to participate in a function where the toast was a feature. I understand that the toast was actually proposed, when, it appears, the majority of those present, guests and congress delegates, remained seated. That is all the information we have been able to obtain, and I cannot gather from the Press or from any other source of information that any speech was delivered by any of these people. Mr. Macmanus, to whom the noble Lord referred, is no longer a teacher.
LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNEI stated that he was no longer a teacher; but he described what he used to do when he was a teacher and under the control of the Education Department.
§ *THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRYHe is no longer a teacher. If he had been we should have known how to deal with him, and we should have dealt with him. But, as he is no longer a teacher, he is not under the control of the Irish Government. The Government referred the matter to the Commissioners of National Education in Ireland for inquiry, and they have reported that they have no information which would justify them in taking any action and that they have no means of obtaining such information. Noble Lords opposite laugh, but I do not quite know how the Government are to obtain information by any other means than through the local paper. His Majesty's Government feel as strongly as any noble Lord in this House that it is, and must be, absolutely disastrous to the interests of the rising generation if they are allowed to have inculcated in their minds feelings of disloyalty, and if it can be shown that any teacher is inculcating such feelings we will take the earliest opportunity of going into the matter and of seeing that that course of action is not repeated.
THE EARL OF MAYOMy Lords, with all respect to the noble Marquess, I cannot refrain from expressing my strong opinion that there are means of obtaining this information if the Government had desired to avail themselves of them. We all know how information is secured in Ireland; it is obtained very easily, and I do not think it is at all satisfactory that Questions asked by noble Lords from Ireland should be anwered in this way. The information could be obtained more easily by His Majesty's Government than by private individuals. When there are cases of alleged crime the Government find no difficulty whatever in obtaining information, and I contend that it is their bounden duty in cases of this kind, when asked for information, to take the means they have in their power of obtaining that information.
§ THE DUKE OF RUTLANDI should like to ask who was the chairman of the meeting, and whether any question has been addressed to him as to what occurred.
§ *THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRYI find that the chairman is here stated to be Mr. Hazlett, M.A., president of the organisation.
§ VICOUNT GOSCHENI agree with the noble Duke beside me that the chairman of the meeting should be asked for an explanation. If a question were addressed to the chairman we would be able to discover whether this incident occurred. If there is a general feeling of loyalty among those teachers they will be able to repudiate it and to furnish the Government with the necessary reply to the charge.
§ *THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRYI think that suggestion is a practical one, and, without pledging myself in any way, I will communicate with the Chief Secretary and ask him whether a question might not be addressed to the chairman for the purpose of obtaining further information.