HL Deb 25 May 1900 vol 83 cc1272-9

Report of Amendments received.

Clause 1 amended.

Clause 2:—

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

Clause 2 provides that the scheme to be prepared by the Department for the constitution of the local higher education committee shall make provision for the representation on the committee of county councils, of the town councils of such burghs, and the commissioners of such police burghs as have a population above 10,000, of school boards, and of the governing bodies of schools which are not under the management of school boards, but which are recognised as giving efficient higher education. If the Amendment standing in my name is adopted, the latter part of the clause will read, "and of the governing bodies of schools ' admitted to the benefits of this Act,' which are not," etc. As the clause stands, all schools which are not under the management of school boards, but which are recognised as giving efficient higher education, appear to be included. I apprehend that the noble Lord only wishes to give representation to the governing bodies of schools which are admitted to the benefits of the Acts.

Amendment moved— In Clause 2, page 2, line 19, after 'schools' to insert ' admitted to the benefits of this Act.'"—(The Earl of' Camperdown.)

* THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (Lord BALFOUR of BURLEIGH)

The noble Earl quite misunderstands the position, because it is the committees who are to admit schools to the benefits of the Act, and if only those who are admitted to the benefits of the Act are to take part in the selection of the committee they will be excluded altogether.

Amendment, by leave of the House, withdrawn.

* LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH

The object of the Amendment standing in my name is to give us the power, if necessary, of putting on the committee representatives of the smaller burghs which have a population under 10,000.

Moved— In Clause 2, page 2, line 21, after 'provision 'to insert 'for the representation on the committee of such other town councils and commissioners as may seem expedient and.'" —(Lord Balfour of Burleigh.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Drafting Amendments agreed to.

Clause 6:—

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

I have a number of Amendments, more or less of a drafting character, to this clause, and I should like to know whether the noble Lord has any objection to them.

* LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH

I have no objection to accepting all the Amendments to this clause standing in the name of the noble Earl. I agree with the object he has in view, and I am at one with him in desiring to preserve full freedom of action for the committees. I am not quite sure whether it will not be necessary to re-cast this clause.

Amendments agreed to.

Clause 7:—

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

Clause 7 provides that in applying the Higher Education (Scotland) Fund the Department— shall make to schools which are recognised as supplying efficient higher education and are not eligible for annual Parliamentary grant, such grants calculated upon the attendances of scholars at such schools as shall be fixed by minutes of the Department to be laid before Parliament. The object of my Amendment is to omit the words "recognised as supplying efficient higher education," and to insert "admitted to the benefits of this Act."

Amendment moved— In Clause 7, page 6, line 31, to leave out from 'recognised' to 'education' in line 32 and insert 'admitted to the benefits of this Act.' "—(The Earl of Camperdown.)

* LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH

It will be quite impossible to accept this Amendment, because the payment of the Equalising Grant under the clause should not depend on the admission of a school to the benefits of the Act. They may wish to give grants to a school which is not otherwise admitted to the benefits of the Act.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

And which is not recommended by the local committee.

* LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH

It may be quite independent of the local committee.

Amendment, by leave of the House, withdrawn.

Clause 9:—

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

Clause 9 deals with the mode of levying contributions from rates for the purposes of the Act. The object of my Amendment is to make it quite clear—and I do not think it is quite clear in the clause as it stands—that only one of the modes suggested shall be resorted to for the raising of the money required. It is quite true, if the rating authority chooses to pay the sum required out of the Equivalent Grant, that it is not likely that the Equivalent Grant will not be sufficient and that a rate will have to be made. But all estimates as to educational expenses have proved so utterly untrustworthy that I think it desirable that it should be stated clearly in the Bill that one, and one only, of these two methods of obtaining money is to be resorted to.

Amendment moved— In Clause 9, page 8, line 11, after 'provided 'to insert' either from moneys received by the rating authority of the district hereinafter referred to under Sub-section 5 of Section 2 of the Education and Local Taxation (Scotland) Act, 1892, or, in lieu thereof.'"— (The Earl of Camperdown).

* LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH

The matter is really perfectly clear. The proviso to Clause 10, which runs as follows— Provided that Sub-section 5 of Section 2 of the Education and Local Taxation (Scotland) Act, 1892, shall be deemed to authorise any council, or commissioners, if they so resolve, in lieu of levying a rate, to apply their share of the grant under that sub-section to meet the payments required from them in any year for the purposes of this section and the immediately preceding section covers both Clauses 9 and 10, and the proviso distinctly says the money may be taken from the Equivalent Grant " in lieu of levying a rate."

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

From a drafting point of view there is considerable objection to these words at the end of Clause 10, because if the noble Lord will look at the proviso, he will see that it refers to payments to be made " for the purposes of this section and the immediately preceding section." Clause 9 is the enacting clause, and people might read that clause over and over again, and yet, if they did not read the proviso at the end of Clause 10, it would not appear to them that there was any limitation as to the mode in which the money was to be levied.

* LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH

I think anyone who does not read the two clauses together will not be fit to work the Act at all, and I am quite sure that the proviso at the end of Clause 10 will be perfectly sufficient for the purpose. I really cannot accept this Amendment.

Amendment, by leave of the House, withdrawn.

Drafting Amendments agreed to.

Amendment moved— In Clause 9, page 8, line 25, after ' certified' to insert 'if provided by a rate.'"—(The Earl of Camperdown.)

* LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH

I hope that the Amendment will not be pressed. The same argument applies to this Amendment which I used just now, namely, that the proviso to Clause 10 covers both of these clauses.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

I will not press the Amendment, but at the same time I do not think it is clear.

* LORD REAY

My Lords, the object of my Amendment is simply to answer the invitation which the noble Lord the Secretary for Scotland addressed to us when he introduced the Bill, that those who were in favour of a Consultative Committee should state plainly how the committee should be constituted. I have put the Amendment on the Paper so that the noble Lord should not think that we were unable to accept the challenge he on that occasion threw out. I have taken the words of the Board of Education Act, but I have added the representatives of whom the Consultative Committees should be composed in order, as I say, to satisfy the noble Lord. But if he wishes to have the constituent elements, of the committee undefined, and if he will accept the clause in that respect as it is in the Board of Education Act, I shall certainly not object to that course. The object of a Consultative Committee is to give to Scotland the same facilities as have been given to England and Wales. In Wales, as the noble Lord knows, the Central Board of Education has considerable-powers, and is composed of eighty members. When the Board of Education Bill was in Committee last year the noble Duke the Lord President of the Council stated that he considered that a minimum of twelve and a maximum of twenty-four would be the right number. I have taken the maximum, and have therefore kept on the safe side as between Wales and England. I do not see any reason why you should not give to the educated classes in Scotland, to those who take an interest in educational problems, the same representation as you have granted to them in England. It is quite clear that, as the Scottish Department of Education is in London, and is therefore at a much greater distance from Scotland than is the Board of Education in England from the centre of its sphere of activity, there are a great many more reasons for giving to Scotland a regular body which can express its opinion authoritatively on subjects and schemes of education. I do not want a Consultative Committee to interfere with administration, rating, and questions of that kind, but there are a number of questions in connection with education, which I need not mention, on which the opinion of the committee would be of great value. I would refer the noble Lord to those admirable special Reports which were issued by the English Education Department. He will find in those Reports a number of questions which could very well be referred to a body of this kind, and which would not touch on any administrative or political aspect of the education question. I do not think I need further indicate my Amendment, but I should like to conclude by reading one sentence, which puts the matter very briefly and tersely, from the Secondary Education Commission Report for England. Education is not a mere policy which a Department can direct and administer; it is a living art, and to practise it skill and discipline are required. Science is ever discovering for it new methods and new subjects, experience is ever improving it, while the growing complexity of our social and mental conditions are ever making demands for some new element or field for its enterprise. If the noble Lord is of opinion that he does not require a Consultative Committee my Amendment does not compel him to appoint one; but as it is probable that his successors may think it desirable to appoint such a committee I hope he will not put it out of their power to have in Scotland the same facilities as heads of the Education Department will in future have in England.

Amendment moved— After Clause 12 to insert the following new Clause:—'It shall be lawful for Her Majesty in Council, by Order, to establish a Consultative Committee for the purpose of advising the Department on any matter referred to the Committee by the Department. The Committee shall consist of eight members appointed by the Crown; eight members elected by the Universities (one by the University Court and one by the senators of each of the four Universities); two members elected by the Association of Secondary Teachers; two members elected by the Educational Institute; one member elected by the Royal Society of Edinburgh; one member elected by the Royal Scottish Academy; one member elected by the Institute of Engineers and Shipbuilding; one member elected by the Highland and Agricultural Society.'"—(Lord Reay.)

* LORD BALFOUR OF BUELEIGH

I acknowledge at once the temperate and conciliatory way in which the noble Lord has brought forward his suggestion. I am afraid, however, that I cannot fall in with the idea which was adumbrated at the very close of his speech, that if I were to accept this Amendment I would still remain free to appoint or not to appoint a Consultative Committee. If I were to accept this Amendment and then not to appoint a committee I am afraid I should be promptly accused of having got my Bill through under false pretences. I am not as yet converted to the necessity of a Consultative Committee. The passage which the noble Lord read was from a Report referring principally, if not entirely, to England, which is a much larger country and one in which educational questions are unfortunately more complex. I deny respectfully the parallel between the two countries in this respect. My argument against a Consultative Committee in the abstract is this, that so far as I am concerned I do not think it necessary, because all those interested lay their views before the Department as it is. I can assure the noble Lord that when there is any divergence of opinion in Scotland we receive a very large number of representations—larger, I believe, than we should receive if such a committee as is suggested were appointed; and I think the tendency of a Consultative Committee would be to check independent representation. On all grounds I should deprecate that, alike in the interests of those who are locally concerned in education and in the interests of the Department, which ought to remain in close touch, as we can do in a country the size of Scotland, with those who are locally interested in educational matters. I believe, also, that it would inevitably tend to this result, that any committee would necessarily have export bias, and would not be thoroughly representative of all interests concerned, including the ratepayers, the taxpayers, and others. I also feel that the Minister would be between two fires. If he did not frequently use the Consultative Committee he would be accused of slighting it,; and if, on the other hand, he did constantly refer to it, he would, in spite of the disclaimer of the noble Lord, be accused of shifting responsibility on to the committee. I also think that a Consultative Committee would tend to increase expenditure, and that this increase would be constantly on the side of fresh demands upon the public funds. I will give one more reason why I think it is inexpedient to have a committee at all, and it is this—that men who have certain definite views to urge would be much more likely to get a place on a committee like this than those who would impartially consider the questions which would come before them. It would be almost inevitable that men who have strong views, and who have perhaps actually prejudged questions, would be those who would be likely to work for appointment on the committee, and therefore I think it would not be a body to which questions could be referred that required to be impartially considered. Perhaps I ought not to judge the noble Lord by the constitution of the committee as placed on the Paper, but I ask whether he thinks one member elected by the Highland and Agricultural Society out of twenty-four would be thought sufficient to adequately represent the agricultural interests of Scotland. I think it is much better that we should be in direct communication with this society and the Central Chamber of Agriculture, as well as with the other agricultural bodies who would find no representation on the committee. The balance of Scottish opinion is distinctly against this proposal, and therefore at the present time, and as at present advised, I cannot accept the noble Lord's Amendment.

Amendment, by leave of the House, withdrawn.

Bill to be read 3a on Monday next; and to be printed as amended. (No. 97.)