Lord Hollandsaid, before their Lordships entered upon the important debate which was fixed for that evening, he wished to put a question to his Majesty's Ministers upon a point, which prior to the independence of Greece being finally settled, ought to be clearly and explicitly understood, not only by the parties immediately concerned in it, but also by the Parliament of England, and by the public at large. He addressed the question which he was going to ask to the noble Lords opposite in the plural number; for he really did not know from which of the public offices the orders had been issued to which he referred, and which were now acted upon by the Commanders of his Majesty's squadrons in the Mediterranean. He was given to understand, that the admiral and captains of his Majesty's vessels on the Mediterranean station were authorized and directed to search all Turkish vessels with which they might fall in, and to intercept all such vessels as they might find having Greek men and women on board, destined to be carried as slaves into foreign countries. It had been stated to him, that such were the instructions issued to all our naval Commanders upon that station. He did not know the precise period at which these instructions were issued, but he believed that they were given to them by 585 implication so far back as the year 1826, which was previous to the signing of the Protocol. But it mattered not when these instructions were given,—it mattered not what disputes might have arisen in consequence of acting upon them; the fact, he believed, was admitted, that the Admiral had received such instructions, and was authorized to act as he had stated. Now, this being the state of circumstances, he wished to know whether these instructions were to apply to Turkish vessels proceeding from Candia, as they had applied to Turkish vessels proceeding from the Morea and from Negropont? He wished also to know what would be the effect of these orders, if the pacification of Greece should be accomplished, leaving Candia in the hands of the Turks? He also asked whether our Admirals would be authorized to intercept Turkish vessels proceeding from Candia with white slaves on board, or whether their instructions would be reversed by the mere circumstance of that pacification? That was the most material question of all, and he therefore wished to know the construction which his Majesty's Government put upon these instructions, as there could be no doubt about their existence.
§ Earl Bathurstcame forward to declare that he was the Minister from whose office the instructions to which the noble Baron alluded had emanated. At the same time he could not help expressing a wish that the noble Baron had given him previous notice of his intention to ask a question upon this subject; for, by looking at the official documents, he should have been able to give the noble Baron a more accurate answer than he could now promise to do from a mere recollection of them, so long after the time at which they had originally been drawn up. As well as he recollected—and he trusted that noble Lords would not charge him hereafter with intentional misrepresentation in case his recollection were wrong—as well as he recollected, the instructions given to our naval Commanders in the Mediterranean were given under an impression, which his Majesty's Government believed to be well founded, that Ibrahim Pacha had published a proclamation in Greece, announcing his intention of taking every Greek whom he could capture to Egypt as a slave, and of transporting a number of Asiatics into Greece, to replace the population so removed. In consequence 586 of the information, and in consequence of impression derived from it, instructions were sent to the Admiral in the Mediterranean to apply to Ibrahim Pacha, and to ask him, in the first place, whether he had issued such a proclamation; and then, if he acknowledged having issued it, to ask him, in the next place, whether he intended to carry it into execution; and finally, if his reply were still in the affirmative, to give him to understand that the British Government would not permit him to act according to the tenor of his proclamation, but would take measures to prevent its execution. Application was made in consequence by our Admiral to Ibrahim Pacha, and his answer was, that he would give no answer, for, whatever he did was done by order of the Sultan,—that the Sultan alone was responsible for it,— and that application ought not to be made to him, but to the Sultan. We found, in point of fact, that no such proclamation had been issued. Instructions were, however, conditionally given to our Commanders, that if such a principle should be acted upon by Ibrahim Pacha, or by any Turkish officer acting under him, every Turkish vessel should be searched in order to ascertain whether any Greek prisoners were on the point of being transported to Egypt as slaves, or whether any Egyptians were on the point of arriving in Greece for the purpose of settling there as colonists.
§ Viscount Goderichsaid, that his principal reason for rising was to inform their Lordships, that his recollection of the circumstances which gave rise to these instructions coincided in most respects with the account given by his noble friend, the President of the Council. It was undoubtedly true, that in consequence of information which reached this country that there was an intention on the part of Ibrahim Pacha to remove the Greek population from the Morea, and to substitute a Mahometan population in its stead, instructions were sent to our Admiral in the Mediterranean, directing him to obtain a categorical answer from Ibrahim Pacha on the one hand, and from the Sultan on the other, as to the reality of such an intention, in order to intimate to either of them, in case they avowed such an intention, that the British Government would not suffer a measure of that nature to be carried into effect. He did not think that the memory of his noble friend (Earl 587 Bathurst) was altogether correct when he stated that our Admiral received authority to take direct steps to prevent the execution of Ibrahim Pacha's designs, in case our information respecting them proved to be correct. All he had to do was to communicate the fact to the Government at home, in order that he might receive further instructions. In point of fact, Ibrahim Pacha disavowed the proclamation, though he wished to throw the responsibility of all he did upon the Porte. If he recollected rightly, the Porte had also disavowed the proclamation. If so, there could be no doubt that those orders having been founded on a conditional state of things, which in point of fact never existed, must be a dead letter; and, therefore, any authority which our Admirals might have to intercept Turkish vessels with Greek slaves on board, must be quite distinct from the orders which had been given to Sir Harry Neal.
Lord Hollandbegged leave to say a few words in explanation, for it appeared to him, from what had fallen from the two noble Lords who had just addressed their Lordships, that they did not understand the drift of his questions. First of all, let him be permitted to say to the noble President of the Council that it was no want of candour that had prevented him from furnishing the noble Earl with previous notice of his intention to put these questions. Neither had the noble President any reason to complain of the course which he had pursued, for his main question was merely prospective. His question was, not when these instructions were first issued, and what was their precise nature and extent; but taking it for granted that they were in force, did they apply to Candia as they formerly applied to the Morea and to Negropont? And would they apply to Candia, when the pacification of Greece was completed, supposing Candia to be still left in the hands of the Turks? As to the extent of the orders, though he knew that it had been the subject of dispute between the Government and the gallant Admiral who had gained for himself immortal glory at Navarino, that, he could assure their Lordships, was not the point at which he had been aiming. But as one of the reasons assigned for the recall of that gallant officer was, that he had not put his orders in force in the manner in which he ought, he (Lord Holland) had been of opinion either that 588 those orders were still in full force, or that new and less ambiguous orders had been issued in their stead. Without pretending to know any secrets of our own Government, he might be permitted to refer to the orders issued by the French Government to the French Admiral which were in his possession; and if the orders issued to the British Admiral were similar to those issued to the French Admiral, there could be no doubt that until the pacification of Greece was complete, he must intercept all Turkish vessels having Greeks on board to be carried into slavery. He had not put the questions which he had asked of his Majesty's Government with a view of censuring their orders; for he had no doubt that both the British and the French Admirals had been called on to interfere with such an unlawful traffic as a white slave trade in the Mediterranean. The orders which had been sent to the French Admiral were to this effect:—"You will lose no time in announcing to Ibrahim Pacha that you will not allow any such outrage upon the rights of humanity, but will prevent it to the utmost of your power: and if you find any such captives on board the vessels you may visit, you will forthwith set them at entire liberty." It was not merely the spirit of the orders of the French Government that induced him to believe we were not to suffer this slave trade, he was led to the belief also by the spirit of the answer made by a leading Member of the Government in the House of Commons when interrogated upon this point. When a question was put to him upon it, about a year or a year and a half ago, it was distinctly understood from his answer, that such orders were still in force. He asked whether, circumstanced as things now were, our Admirals had still the same instructions and the same right to stop Turkish vessels laden with Candiote slaves, and whether those instructions would continue in force after the pacification of Greece was finally concluded.
§ The Duke of Wellingtonsaid, that he could not pretend to recollect precisely the terms of an order issued four years ago; but he believed the fact to be as the noble Viscount (Goderich) had stated it —namely, that the order referred to applied solely to the Morea. He (the Duke of Wellington) believed that it was not applicable at that time to Candia, or indeed to any other part of Greece, save to the Morea. As the Morea had not been 589 liable to have its population exported in this manner, the order, though it still remained with the Admiral, was not likely to be executed, as the contingency for which it had been issued to provide had never existed.
Lord Hollandsaid, that there was one merit, at least, in the answer of the noble Duke—it was a distinct and explicit answer. He now understood that the instructions did not apply to Candia. He did not wish to argue the policy or impolicy of that arrangement at the moment, when their Lordships were about to have a great question submitted to their consideration; but he could not help requesting their Lordships to remark the situation in which this country and the British Admiral were placed by it. The original instructions were issued before the Protocol, and consequently before the signature of the Treaty of the 6th of July. On what principle were they issued? Were they not issued on the score of humanity? Were they not directly contrary —were they not in the very teeth of that austere and extreme neutrality which the noble Lords opposite so much affected? For, strictly speaking, we had no right, according to the ordinary law of nations, to interfere in any struggle which might be raging between the Turks and their subjects—the Greeks. He had no doubts that those instructions were issued because the honest, and manly, and humane nature of the late Lord Liverpool was shocked at the contemplation of a war conducted on such principles, and was revolted by the outrages which were committed during its continuance, upon human nature. Upon such grounds we had interfered to prevent such a traffic, and he wished to know whether any difference at all was made on that occasion between the inhabitants of Candia and those of the Morea? At all events, we sanctioned the principle of interference with such an odious traffic, and if it should hereafter be the policy of the Ottoman Porte to transport the Greek inhabitants of Candia as slaves to Egypt or elsewhere, having already sanctioned the principle of interfering, by preventing the transportation of Greek slaves from the Morea, we had set the example to the other Powers of Europe to interfere and interrupt such a trade, if trade it could be called, should it ever be carried on. If such a transportation of the inhabitants of Candia should be at-empted, it would be right and fair, under 590 such circumstances, for the Powers of Europe to interfere; and what then, became of the pacification of Greece? Would it not be more prudent, and certainly more effectual towards establishing the pacification of Greece, to have that point settled in the first instance, and not to leave the Powers of Europe, as they stood before the 6th of July, possessed of the right of interfering and engaging in warfare with the Turks without the restrictions and fetters imposed upon them by that Treaty? It was to avoid such a state of things that he (Lord Holland) was anxious that some arrangement should be made with regard to Candia. It was for that purpose he had asked this question before the final settlement of Greece had been arranged; and if the views which he had stated to their Lordships on the subject should appear just and correct to his Majesty's Ministers, it might be yet time enough to adopt them and carry them into effect in the intended settlement of Greece.
§ The Duke of Wellingtonsaid, the line pursued by the noble Lord on this occasion had been most informal. The noble Lord came down to the House, and without any notice whatever, put a question respecting transactions that had taken place three years ago; he made three speeches, containing long reasonings in each of them upon the subject, and then called upon his Majesty's Government to answer at once his hypothetical question. As to what might be the conduct of the Powers of Europe if certain occurrences foretold by the noble Lord should take place, it was not for him to say; but this he would say, that he was ready, whenever the noble Lord should think proper to bring forward any specific Motion upon the subject, to answer any questions he should have to propose. But for the present he would beg the noble Lord to bear in mind that the measures which had been taken to prevent the transportation of slaves from the Morea, were not applicable to Candia, because the circumstances respecting the transactions in the Morea did not apply to Candia; and before the noble Lord assumed that the same principle which had been formerly acted upon with regard to the Morea would be applied to what might occur in Candia, it was necessary for the noble Lord to show that the state of things in the Morea was similar to the state of things in Candia.
Lord Ellenboroughsaid, it should be recollected that the statement as to the transportation of Greek slaves from the Morea to Egypt was almost in every respect an exaggerated, false, and unfounded story.
Lord Hollandwould merely ask, in reply to what had fallen from the noble Lord, whether a great many slaves who were about being transported by Ibrahim Pacha from the Morea had not been seized and released by Sir E. Codrington, and whether there were not many Candiotes amongst those who were thus released?
Lord Ellenboroughsaid, it was impossible for him to say whether there were or were not Candiotes amongst the slaves transported to Alexandria, but to show that there had been much exaggeration and misrepresentation abroad upon the subject, he would state a simple fact. It was well known that there were many Greek slaves serving in the Turkish army in the Morea, and when that army was about to evacuate the Morea, and they were left to their choice, either to go with their masters or to remain with their relations, they preferred going to Egypt to remaining in Greece.—The subject was here dropped.