§ 4. Mr. Hugo Swire (East Devon) (Con)What recent discussions he has had with President Mbeki of South Africa concerning the future of Zimbabwe. [171832]
§ (Mr. Chris Mullin) The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth AffairsWe are in regular contact with the South African Government on the issue of Zimbabwe. The Prime Minister discussed Zimbabwe with President Mbeki when they recently spoke following the election victory by the African National Congress, and my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary has regularly discussed it with South Africa's Foreign Minister. I will have further discussions when I visit South Africa later this month.
§ Mr. SwireEvery hour of every day, thousands of Zimbabweans continue to flee across the Limpopo from Mugabe's nightmare into President Mbeki's South Africa—this at a time when even a respected local journal such as theKenya Times is joining the general chorus of condemnation of President Mbeki's inactivity. We know that the Foreign Secretary is still of the belief that President Mbeki is key to unlocking the unhappy situation in Zimbabwe, but does the Minister honestly believe that President Mbeki has either the intention or the willpower to do so, or is he merely clutching at straws?
§ Mr. MullinYes, we do believe that President Mbeki and his Government are making a serious effort to resolve the situation in Zimbabwe, and he has not been inactive. He has been extremely active, but the trouble is that he is dealing with extremely difficult customers, as we all are, in Mr. Mugabe and his cronies.
§ Helen Jackson (Sheffield, Hillsborough) (Lab)Is my hon. Friend aware of the recent visit to the House of Commons by the then Deputy Speaker of the South African Parliament, the hon. Baleka Mbete—you will be delighted to know, Mr. Speaker, that she is now the Speaker—and of her clear recognition of the key role that South Africa will have to play in any change of Government and leadership in Zimbabwe? She also made the point, however, that such change will have to 144 be brought about within the democracy and structures of Zimbabwe, rather than by any major inward force from other countries.
§ Mr. MullinYes I was aware of the visit of the Deputy Speaker—now the Speaker—although I did not meet her. It is true, as my hon. Friend says, that any solution to the problem in Zimbabwe will inevitably involve South Africa, which is the main player. Any differences that we have with South Africa involve tactics rather than principle.
§ Mr. John Bercow (Buckingham) (Con)Given that the articulate, charismatic and democratically elected mayor of Harare, Elias Mudzuri, was first suspended and then removed from office, and that the Mugabe thugs are now seeking to evict him and his family from their home—which I had the privilege of visiting in February this year—will the Minister accept the urgent need to beseech the President of South Africa to stop appeasing the tyrant Mugabe and to start insisting that the Southern African Development Community norms and standards, according to which the South African elections were conducted, are the norms and standards by which the Government of Zimbabwe should also be conducted?
§ Mr. MullinI completely agree with the hon. Gentleman, and I am sure that the South African Government would too. I do not think that it is necessary to beseech the South African Government. We have a regular dialogue with them, based on mutual respect, but at the end of the day, the problem is being caused by Mr. Mugabe and ZANU-PF, and by their unwillingness to engage with their opponents.
§ Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)Is it not now time for the British and South African Governments to make a joint approach to the United Nations to make it clear that there can be no free and fair parliamentary elections in Zimbabwe next year unless there is a change of Government there? This has to be said clearly now. Zimbabwe needs free and fair elections, but it is not going to get them. President Mbeki and our Prime Minister should go to the United Nations to get this whole issue discussed.
§ Mr. MullinWe would be happy to join in any initiative that the South Africans thought worth while. The problem with going to the United Nations—certainly to the Security Council—is that there has to be an international dispute before the Security Council will become involved. The matter is therefore unlikely to discussed by the Security Council unless the surrounding countries signify that they want it to be. In regard to the United Nations Commission on Human Rights at Geneva, we and our EU colleagues have raised the issue of Zimbabwe there for the last three years in succession, but on each occasion our motion has fallen to a non-action motion prompted by the African states.
§ Sir Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield) (Con)The Minister is well aware that President Thabo Mbeki, whose African National Congress party swept back to power in South Africa recently, is absolutely critical to the solution of the problems in Zimbabwe. The Minister 145 will also be aware that those who can help to restructure Zimbabwe continue to flee the country—many of them going to South Africa or coming here to the United Kingdom—with absolutely nothing, because they can bring nothing out. Have the Government considered discussing with President Mbeki the matter of the supply of power to Zimbabwe, because the Republic of South Africa plays a critical part in that regard? I do not want the people of Zimbabwe to suffer any more than they are already, but could that be a way of bringing additional pressure to bear on President Mugabe?
§ Mr. MullinThat is certainly an issue that has come up from time to time. It would be a very large step to take, partly because it would inflict even more suffering on innocent Zimbabweans, and I know that that is not the hon. Gentleman's intention. I think that is all I can say about it for the time being.