§ The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Mr. Adam Ingram)I am grateful for this opportunity to report to the House following the serious allegations that have been made in recent days about the conduct of some British soldiers in Iraq. Any decent-thinking person will have been disturbed by photographs published in the Daily Mirror on Saturday, appearing to show the mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners by British soldiers.
From the outset, we have taken the allegations seriously and taken the photographs at face value, and we will continue to do so unless there is evidence to the contrary. The special investigation branch of the Royal Military Police was immediately informed, and an investigation launched. RMP special investigation branch teams are currently following up lines of inquiry in Iraq, in the UK and in Cyprus, where the First Battalion, The Queen's Lancashire Regiment is currently based. Investigating officers are in touch with people at the Daily Mirror, to see what further information they have that might help get to the bottom of the incident. To date, they have handed over a total of some 20 photographs.
It would be wrong for me to speculate about the outcome of this investigation, which must be allowed to take its course. As right hon. and hon. Members will be aware, it is not appropriate for Ministers to interfere with police investigations. I can assure the House, however, that if British soldiers are found to have acted unlawfully, appropriate action will be taken. Our immediate priority is to establish the truth as quickly as possible. That is why I urge individuals with relevant information to come forward. We are determined to leave no stone unturned.
The House will know that a number of other allegations have been made concerning instances of mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners and Iraqi civilians, some of which have resulted in fatalities. These are also serious matters and are being thoroughly investigated. There have been suggestions that such investigations are not being pursued properly or are unduly slow. I believe this to be unfair to the investigating personnel. Many of these investigations require detailed work to be undertaken in difficult and often dangerous circumstances. They cannot and should not be rushed. I am confident that they are being carried out properly.
It is my intention to release as much further detail as possible on all these incidents, bearing in mind the rights of all those involved. It would be quite wrong to prejudice this process by applying undue pressure for haste, or indeed to point the finger of guilt outside the due process of law.
The Daily Mirror article will have caused some people to question the integrity of British soldiers and the validity of their mission in Iraq. Thousands of service personnel have served in Iraq over the past 14 months. They have done an exceptional job in testing circumstances, and in turn have secured the support of the majority of Iraqis. I hope that right hon. and hon. Members will join me in paying tribute to the superb work that our armed forces are doing both in Iraq and elsewhere around the world. While treating these 1212 allegations with full seriousness, we should not allow them to colour our judgment of the quality or integrity of our troops, or of the Army as a whole.
Very grave allegations have been made that challenge the reputation of the British Army here, in Iraq and elsewhere. We must ascertain their truth or otherwise. At best, such allegations undermine the excellent work that our armed forces are doing under the most difficult conditions today in Iraq. They undermine the progress that we have made with our coalition partners in moving Iraq forward from the tyranny that the Iraqi people suffered under Saddam Hussein. Our forces serve with distinction throughout the world, whether in Iraq, Afghanistan, Sierra Leone, the Balkans, Northern Ireland or elsewhere. Their achievements and professionalism are rightly praised worldwide. That is why we must establish the truth or otherwise of these allegations.
§ Mr. Nicholas Soames (Mid-Sussex) (Con)I thank the Minister for his statement and for providing an advance copy earlier this afternoon.
The allegations in the Daily Mirror are extremely serious and must of course be thoroughly and swiftly investigated. But the whole House will agree that they are the more shocking because of the outstanding reputation of the British armed forces not only for their remarkable war-fighting capabilities, but for their abiding humanity and decency in peacekeeping operations, and because of the ethos and values of the British Army, which have sustained it so successfully down the ages.
A great deal is expected of our soldiers. They are required sometimes to deploy on operations that are extremely dangerous, to obey orders that may put their lives at risk, and to live and work for long periods under the most challenging conditions. This House, the country and the media badly need to understand that military service is like no other in the demands that it places on individuals and the organisation. Soldiers exist to engage in war, and war places unique demands upon them. They overcome those challenges only if morale, discipline and training are of the highest order. From every soldier is demanded an exceptional level of commitment, self-sacrifice and, above all, mutual trust. We therefore wholly support the most vigorous and detailed investigations to restore the good name of the British Army.
As I said, the allegations made in the Daily Mirror are serious and must be pursued as a matter of urgency. I should be grateful if the Minster clarified the following. Has his Department's investigation been able to confirm the authenticity of the photographs published by the Daily Mirror? Has his Department any evidence of the Daily Mirror offering financial inducements for providing alleged evidence of such behaviour? How many alleged incidents of the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by British soldiers have been reported? How many alleged incidents involving British troops are being investigated by his Department, and when will they reach a conclusion? Is the Minister satisfied with the training given to our troops in the handling of detainees prior to deployment and when they are in theatre?
1213 If these incidents have indeed taken place, the most vigorous action must be taken to protect those in military custody in Iraq and elsewhere, and to restore the good name of the Army. The values and standards of conduct under which our soldiers are trained make it absolutely clear that in bearing arms they have an exceptional responsibility of respect for others, and those values and standards demand from them the ability to distinguish clearly between right and wrong, and to maintain the highest standards of decency at all times.
Finally, the allegations centre on the Queen's Lancashire Regiment, which is more than 300 years old and carries more battle honours on its regimental colours than any other infantry regiment of the line. Its battle honours include Quebec and Waterloo. It fought with distinction throughout the South African war, in France and Flanders, and at Ypres, the Somme, Paschendale and Gallipoli. It covered the evacuation at Dunkirk, fought in the far east and north Africa, and was one of the two assault battalions of the 3rd Division that captured the beachhead at the Normandy landings. In the recent campaign in Iraq, its commanding officer was awarded the distinguished service order, and the regimental sergeant-major was awarded the military cross. If wrong has been done, it is clear that it must immediately be dealt with, but let this House and the wider country keep in perspective 300 years of the most loyal, gallant and distinguished service to the Crown and the nation.
§ Mr. IngramI am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his message of support for our troops and the superb work that they are doing. He asked several questions about the authenticity of the photographs, but, as I said in my opening statement, it is not for Ministers to interfere and involve themselves in the minutiae of an ongoing investigation. It is a matter for the investigating authorities to bring to a conclusion. I therefore have no evidence one way or the other on the matter. Clearly, given the speculation outside, it is right and proper that the appropriate authorities are pursuing that line of inquiry.
The hon. Member for Mid-Sussex (Mr. Soames) asked how many cases are currently in the process of investigation. So far, 33 cases of civilian deaths, injuries or ill treatment have been investigated in Iraq: 12 are ongoing, and 21 have been completed. Of the completed cases, 15 were found to have no case to answer, and six recommendations are currently being considered. That is the current position. Those recommendations will go through the appropriate process of law, which means independent of the chain of command and with no ministerial involvement.
The hon. Gentleman also asked about the training of our troops and I know that he is aware of the answer. We give our troops the highest level of training in all aspects of international law, the Geneva conventions and human rights issues. Indeed, we are renowned internationally for the work that we do in helping failed states to raise their standards through various post-conflict initiatives. We sometimes help countries to come back into the wider community of nations. Anyone visiting such countries would hear of the 1214 qualities spoken about by those who have been trained by our troops, showing that what we teach our troops is imparted with full vigour elsewhere.
The hon. Gentleman rightly ended by highly commending the QLR, which is indeed a first-class regiment. He is right to point to the significant number of high awards received by its troops during the recent conflict in Iraq. I am sure that the vast majority of them, if not all, will be very concerned about these allegations.
§ Mr. Paul Keetch (Hereford) (LD)I, too, thank the Minister for advance notice of his statement. I welcome it and I congratulate him on his words. We believe that there are serious doubts about the authenticity of the Daily Mirror photos. Whether or not they are genuine, I agree with the Minister that, the sooner we can sort out this story, the better for all concerned. However, there can be no doubt about the photos taken of US troops, or, indeed, those of UK forces taken by a fusilier who was arrested last year. I ask the Minister to tell us the outcome of that investigation.
Liberal Democrat Members have asked many questions about the alleged instances of mistreatment. When will those questions be answered—they have not been answered since January—and how many legal cases does the Minister expect to be brought as a result of families' actions this week? It is suggested that the US military did not co-operate with the Red Cross at Abu Ghraib prison camp. Will the Minister give an assurance today that the Red Cross will be given full and complete access to all detainees held under UK control in Iraq?
Finally, the Ministry of Defence stated last month that the European convention on human rights does not apply in Iraq, despite the fact that the UK has signed it and that many courts believe that it applies to the agents of those states that have signed it. Under what position and under what human rights laws are Iraqis held in UK custody in Iraq?
The men and women of Her Majesty's armed forces have an unequalled reputation for professionalism and honour—and that includes the QLR. If they continue to demonstrate that in Iraq as they have been, the whole House and the country should support them. However, if that reputation is to be preserved, the Government must act on this matter with speed and with transparency.
§ Mr. IngramIn closing, the hon. Gentleman asked a pertinent question about the need for openness. That is why I said that I would seek to impart to the House as much information as possible about all these ongoing investigations when we are able to do so. Subsequently, the information will be imparted to the wider public. We must also bear it in mind that we have to protect the rights of everyone associated with what may be a legal process. It is not for us to judge—only, perhaps, to examine, to ask questions and to move the process forward by ensuring that all the proper procedures are being applied.
The hon. Gentleman asked how many legal cases we expect to emerge from this matter. I cannot predict that. Aggrieved persons must determine what laws they will seek to apply in any given circumstances. Our best judgment is that the European convention on human rights does not apply. I assume that that will be tested in 1215 law, as I believe that a community of people exists who will seek to do just that. We know that some groups of lawyers have already indicated that they propose to bring actions against the Government in this matter. We shall have to see how all that plays out.
The hon. Gentleman also asked whether the International Committee of the Red Cross would be given full access. The answer is yes: we seek at all times to work closely with the ICRC, which sets very high standards. It is right that we give it access, and that we listen to any comments or criticisms that it may make about how we deal with people in our custody.
I hope that that answers the hon. Gentleman's questions. If not, or if any other points arise, we can return to the matter at a later stage.
§ Mr. Peter Mandelson (Hartlepool) (Lab)Many aspects of this matter will worry people, and that is understandable. However, what worries me is that, although the leader in today's Daily Mirror says that the matter is the subject of "concern and investigation", the headline on the front page talks, apparently conclusively and as though it were a proven fact, of British Army torture of Iraqis. That is a most unfortunate piece of journalism. Will my right hon. Friend take this opportunity to reaffirm that the rules of natural justice still exist in this country? Is not it an important principle that people against whom allegations are made remain innocent until they are proven guilty? Will my right hon. Friend reassure the House that that principle will govern the approach of the Army and the Government to this whole matter?
§ Mr. IngramI agree wholeheartedly with my right hon. Friend, and in my statement I tried to highlight the principle to which he refers. I also noted that the SIB is in touch with the Daily Mirror, and I hope that the newspaper will give the investigators the fullest cooperation.
In its leader last Saturday, the Daily Mirror said that
for the sake of the British Army's reputation and the integrity of every decent member of our forces, those who carried out this and other savage acts must be court-martialled.I think that everyone can understand those sentiments, but the implication is that guilt has been established already. That is not the case. The Daily Mirror claims to know the identity of one of the attackers, saying that he and a colleague provided the photographs and the information that were the basis for the allegations. Nevertheless, the newspaper appears intent on protecting the identities of its informants, because, it says, the soldiers fear reprisals by the Army.I genuinely do not understand the concern about reprisals. I have every confidence that everyone with relevant information will be treated fairly and lawfully, and that their rights will be fully respected. That is why I hope—and I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Member for Hartlepool (Mr. Mandelson) will agree with me on this—that the Daily Mirror will reconsider its position and assist the investigating authorities in getting to the bottom of these most serious allegations.
§ Dr. Andrew Murrison (Westbury) (Con)At each stage of the detention process, from apprehension to theatre internment facility, it is very important that 1216 there is external scrutiny by independent nongovernmental organisations. That is helpful for individuals, and for Army units. What reports has the Minister received from external organisations about the way in which detainees have been handled?
§ Mr. IngramI fully recognise the point made by the hon. Gentleman, whose question I sought to answer in my response to the hon. Member for Hereford (Mr. Keetch). We do not deny access, as the hon. Gentleman will know from his own military experience. We fully comply with the requirements placed on us by international law. Indeed, we often tend to go beyond what is asked of us, to ensure that appropriate NGOs have adequate access to prisoners. Sometimes we go further, and allow individuals to visit detainees as well. That allows tremendous scrutiny of what is going on.
The hon. Gentleman asked whether I had received any adverse or other reports. To date, I have received no such reports, but some may be in the process of being compiled. The ICRC is authoritative and operates in a precise and structured way. It will make known its concerns, and if we need to act on them, we will.
§ Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab)The allegations, if true, shame every single one of us. Preventing abuse requires compliance with rules for the treatment of prisoners. I went to Abu Ghraib prison and the facility at Basra a few weeks ago. Many detainees in Iraq have been held virtually incommunicado under rules that have never been made public. I have been concerned about the general treatment of detainees since June and have made that point over and over.
I have a particular case to raise. An Iraqi woman who was taken prisoner was held for a long time without charge. I went to her house in Baghdad where she told me her allegations of ill treatment. Those allegations were passed on to the appropriate authorities. They did not concern British troops. They were made against American troops. In some cases, such allegations have been proved. I must tell the Minister, who has always been most helpful in assisting me to visit prisons and talk to people in Iraq, that it must be made perfectly clear to the US military, as well as ours, that the Geneva conventions must apply in all cases when prisoners are held.
§ Mr. Adam IngramI pay genuine tribute to my hon. Friend, who has worked more than assiduously on all the tasks that she has just described and more. She is highly respected across the Iraqi civilian population, and rightly so.
On her comments about the United States, I must say that that is not really a matter for the UK Government, although we would be concerned if any coalition partner were in breach of parts of international law to which they had subscribed. There is a process by which we could raise that with them while working alongside them.
Insofar as our own troops and any mistreatment are concerned, I cannot respond to my hon. Friend's detailed points or any other cases that she may have in mind. I should be grateful if she would meet me to go 1217 through each example and see what we can do to take cases forward. I would be concerned if matters had been reported and not acted on.
§ Mr. Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley) (Con)The Queen's Lancashire Regiment has a base and a museum at Fulwood in Preston. The people of Preston and Lancashire are proud of their close association with the regiment for all the reasons that have been given about its distinguished past service, most recently in Bosnia and Northern Ireland.
Does the Minister agree that it might have been better for the Daily Mirror to pass on the photographs at the beginning so that their veracity and validity could be worked out and an investigation started before allegations were thrown about? Will he assure us that there is a way in which any serviceman or servicewoman is able to complain should he or she believe that any wrongdoing has occurred so that it can be thoroughly investigated? Will he assure us that the current investigation will be speedy and thorough so that the good name of the Queen's Lancashire Regiment can be restored?
§ Mr. IngramI echo those sentiments about the QLR and all the regiments that have served in Iraq and elsewhere in Her Majesty's name. So far as the Daily Record is concerned—[HON. MEMBERS: "Daily Mirror".] Did I say record? What is in the Daily Mirror is a matter of record, so perhaps that is what I had in mind, although the two papers are in the same group. I am grateful to hon. Members for correcting me.
In terms of what the Daily Mirror—I will say it again to make sure that I am not misunderstood—should have done, it must make its own judgment calls. It is currently assisting with the investigation and that is why I said that I hope that it will co-operate fully. These very serious allegations must be fully investigated and that can be done only if people co-operate fully, and that includes the journalists and editors of that newspaper.
The hon. Gentleman also asked about wrongdoing and whether service personnel would feel confident about reporting it. I hope so. Given the scrutiny—the correct scrutiny—of such allegations, and everything that we are doing in Iraq, I hope that all officers in the command chain realise that they have to act with the utmost integrity. I do not question their integrity by saying that, but given the nature of what has happened I am sure that they will encourage full compliance and openness throughout the ranks.
The hon. Gentleman also asked about a speedy and thorough investigation. I can promise a thorough investigation. Speed may be of the essence, but it should not be the priority. We do want to get to the bottom of the matter as quickly as possible, but it is better to get it right than to get it done quickly.
§ Mr. Gordon Prentice (Pendle) (Lab)The QLR is my local regiment and has the freedom of the town of Colne in my constituency. I wish to return to a question posed earlier by an Opposition Member. Has the Daily Mail—[Interruption.] I blame the Minister for that slip-up. Has the Daily Mirror been asked specifically if any 1218 money changed hands for the photographs? That is a central question, which has been asked by several hon. Members, but no answer has been given as yet.
§ Mr. IngramI recognise my hon. Friend's interest in protecting the good name of the QLR, but he cannot have heard what I said. It is not for Ministers to interfere in the minutiae of investigations—[HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] Well, because if we answer one question, there will be another and then another. I therefore say to hon. Members who may be concerned about the issue that we should let the investigating authorities—the SIB of the Royal Military Police—carry out their actions according to their powers in the matter. The Daily Mirror has been asked by other newspapers—perhaps even the Daily Mail, although not the Daily Record—whether money changed hands. It is a matter for the newspaper. If it wants transparency from the armed forces, it should operate by the same standards.
§ Mr. Andrew Mackay (Bracknell) (Con)Will the Minister accept that at a time of war the armed forces and Ministers in our free, open society bear special responsibilities, but so do the media? It is especially incumbent on an editor such as Piers Morgan to satisfy himself completely that allegations are correct and photographs are accurate. If they turn out not to be so, will action be taken against him and his newspaper?
§ Mr. IngramThe right hon. Gentleman strays into areas for which I have no responsibility. It is a concern that when the press make such charges they can walk away having laid waste to people's reputations. The press have an obligation, but there is another issue. Those allegations have been spread across the Arab world, including Iraq, and the question arises whether lives have been put at risk by what may prove to be unfounded allegations. That should be on the consciences of those who have run such allegations. However, it is not for me to judge whether there would be any legal implications in that case.
§ Janet Anderson (Rossendale and Darwen) (Lab)While I understand what my right hon. Friend the Minister says about allowing the investigation and any possible legal process to take their course, does he agree that the allegations against the QLR are so serious that, should they prove to be unfounded, the editor of the Daily Mirror should resign forthwith?
§ Mr. IngramI am conscious of the anger that has been expressed, but my focus is on the good name of Her Majesty's armed forces, not on the good name or otherwise of particular newspaper editors.
§ Adam Price (East Carmarthen and Dinefwr) (PC)The Minister mentioned the European convention on human rights. Is he aware that a case against the Turkish armed forces, following an incident in northern Iraq, has already been ruled admissible by the European Court of Human Rights? In the light of that, and regardless of the legal opinion, will he not send a positive signal to the Iraqi people that the Government are making a policy decision that article 2 of the convention, 1219 on the right to life, and article 3, on the prohibition of degrading and inhuman treatment, apply equally to Iraqi citizens and to citizens of the United Kingdom?
§ Mr. IngramI know the hon. Gentleman's position. He has been campaigning on a basis of presumed guilt in some cases, although no doubt he will disagree. The finger of suspicion has been pointed at our forces and we have debated that previously. In relation to the corpus of law that applies in this matter, I hope that the hon. Gentleman is not implying that we do not apply international law with full rigour. The UK has the highest standards in its application of international law and its adherence to the Geneva convention. If any part of domestic law is wrapped up with that, as a result of a judgment, we have to apply that, too. We must carefully consider those parts of the law that are applicable and those that may or may not have import. That is a matter for best legal advice.
I know that the hon. Gentleman has come to a conclusion. I do not know whether he is a lawyer or whether he has taken legal advice—his opinion may be political—but I prefer to wait and see the argument in the round.
§ Mrs. Joan Humble (Blackpool, North and Fleetwood) (Lab)Is my right hon Friend aware that, as well as having a distinguished 300-year history, the Queen's Lancashire Regiment has more recently helped to rebuild 30 schools and two orphanages in Basra, and that it has also trained the police force in Basra? It is thus vital that the inquiry is undertaken as quickly as possible, given the caveats that my right hon. Friend has already mentioned, because the Queen's Lancashire Regiment and indeed our other forces in Iraq need to regain the trust of the people of Basra so that they can continue to do the vital work of rebuilding that society.
§ Mr. IngramMy hon. Friend is right to point out that the QLR and other regiments haze done good work. They have made truly magnificent efforts, way beyond the call of duty, to re-establish—or establish—normal society in Iraq. Their good name has undoubtedly been besmirched, and we must demand all the information that is held by anyone so that we can find out the truth about the allegations. It is difficult to judge how much damage has been caused to our ongoing relationship with the people of Iraq, but I have no doubt that British troops and all that they do are held in high regard in our area of operation and that that will continue. That is why we must lay the matter to rest, Let us see whether the allegations are founded.
§ Dr. Vincent Cable (Twickenham) (LD)As British private security companies play an extremely important role in Iraq, can the Minister say what arrangements exist to regulate their relationship with Iraqi prisoners and civilians?
§ Mr. IngramFirst, their staff will have to be properly trained and their capability assessed. They will then be obliged to comply fully with the legislation relevant to their operations. I shall write to the hon. Gentleman with the details about the regulations under which those 1220 companies operate—there are legal constructs and that is another matter where we must get proper explanation into the public domain.
§ Mr. David Borrow (South Ribble) (Lab)I share the concern expressed across Lancashire by colleagues from all parties about the impact of the allegations in the Daily Mirror on our constituents and on families involved at one level or another with the QLR. Does my right hon. Friend agree that if the allegations were true they should have been reported when the incidents were seen by members of the QLR? Had they been reported at that time—last summer, if the allegations are true—six or nine months would have been saved in relation to the torture or harm to Iraqi prisoners that may have taken place. Will my right hon. Friend explain the duties of soldiers serving in Her Majesty's forces who see something that should not be happening?
§ Mr. IngramAll our troops are trained to report wrongdoing, no matter from what source. That deals with the first part of my hon. Friend's question. If true—of course, that is the important phrase—the incidents should have been reported much earlier, and we may have to establish why they were not, either during the investigation or at some point thereafter. If lessons have to be learned, we must ensure that no serving member of Her Majesty's forces feels obliged in any way whatsoever to cover up for wrongdoing, as that is a complete denial of what they are sent out to do in the name of this country.
§ Hugh Robertson (Faversham and Mid-Kent) (Con)The fastest way to clear up this matter would be for the Ministry of Defence to have access to the Daily Mirror's sources. If that paper's editor is not prepared to give them up voluntarily, has the Ministry of Defence investigated whether there is any way in which under military legislation, such as the Army Acts or something similar, it can compel the Daily Mirror to reveal those sources, given the security implications?
§ Mr. IngramWe are too early in the process to give an opinion on that. We should call on the good name of the editor and the journalists of that newspaper to note the expressions of concern that have been raised in the House and elsewhere about the information that they claim to have—they state categorically that they have it—about those who carried out these acts. Perhaps they hold other information as well. We should allow them to co-operate; they are currently talking to our investigating officers, and we must take things step by step.
§ Mr. Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab)Has my right hon. Friend yet consulted the chairman of the Press Complaints Commission about what the code says about payments by a newspaper to those who have committed or are complicit in criminal offences? Does my right hon. Friend agree that, if it is established that those offences were committed, the sternest action must be taken against those involved? I say this as someone who served for nine years as a member of the Daily Mirror's staff and as a Member of Parliament for Lancashire who has visited the war graves of young men 1221 in the Queen's Lancashire Regiment who died in their young manhood to defend the justice and rights of this country. Does he also agree that, if those offences are not shown to have been committed and the pictures are not shown to be authentic, the sternest action will be taken in those circumstances as well?
§ Mr. IngramIn this case, my focus has been on the allegations against members of the QLR. Although I treat all the attendant matters with equal seriousness, we will have to come to them at a later stage. Again, I hope that those in that newspaper and in other parts of the media that may have acted similarly will listen to the views expressed in the House, so that they realise that they should tread warily. Again, it is not for me to take such action, but we can seek to stimulate it. It is for others to judge whether there has been any wrongdoing and, if so, what penalties should be levelled against anyone who breaches any Act of Parliament. If the stories are untrue, we have to ensure that the QLR's good name is reinstated. We have a lot of work to do to ensure that those untruths are put to rest in Iraq and elsewhere, where members of Her Majesty's forces are serving in some very difficult circumstances.
§ Mr. Hugo Swire (East Devon) (Con)While I have doubts about the authenticity of some of the photographs, I have no such doubt about the wisdom of the editor of the Daily Mirror in publishing them at this time. We underestimate at our peril the damage in Iraq and the wider Arab world that the allegations cause to the reputation of the allies. Has the Minister held any discussions with our American allies, given the timing of the release of some of the photographs that allege wrongdoing by the Americans? If so, will he inform us of the nature of those discussions and what priority the Ministry is giving to talking to the Americans about restoring our reputation in Iraq and winning back the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people?
§ Mr. IngramIn one sense, I do not believe that we need to talk to the United States if we consider the serious way in which senior members of that Administration have reacted to the appalling photographs that involve US troops. Clearly, talks take place at the highest level—between the Prime Minister and the President and between my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence and Donald Rumsfeld. All those discussions are continuing but we must bear in mind that the allegations that relate to the United Kingdom are very new. We must therefore establish the truth and get to the facts. If wrongdoing has occurred, the perpetrators must be brought to justice, but their human rights must be protected. We cannot and should not take away people's rights in law. We must therefore be careful about ascribing blame or pointing the finger before any evidence that can stack up in a court has been presented.
The flavour of the comments today highlights the fine line that we are walking. Only time will tell the extent of the damage that has been done to our troops in Iraq and perhaps elsewhere.
§ Mr. Mark Hendrick (Preston) (Lab/Co-op)There is anger and sorrow among the soldiers of the Queen's 1222 Lancashire Regiment and their relatives and friends. The photographs have besmirched the name of the finest regiment in the country. If they are found to be fraudulent, will my right hon. Friend ensure not only that the regiment's reputation is restored but that legal action is taken against those who produced and published the photographs? Does he agree that, if they are found to be fraudulent, the Daily Mirror will henceforth be known to Labour Members as "The Dodgy Daily"?
§ Mr. IngramI think that it is better to try to get to the facts. Although the reputation of the Queen's Lancashire Regiment—and the entire British Army—has been damaged, its good name ranks high internationally, as the hon. Member for Mid-Sussex said earlier. The more hon. Members continue to play in the same territory as those parts of the media that want to undermine the quality of the work that has been done—I do not place my hon. Friend in that category—the more they will drag down our troops' capacity to deliver the sort of normal society that we support. That applies not only to Iraq but to Afghanistan, the Balkans, Sierra Leone and other parts of our troubled globe. Big issues are at stake and we must all be careful in rushing to judgment. Let us get the facts, ascertain what has happened and take it from there.
Rev. Martin Smith (Belfast, South) (UUP)While I agree that we should get the facts, does the Minister agree that, in the past, newspapers have rushed speedily into print with specious claims? One distinguished officer of the British Army, Colonel Tim Collins, was slurred but ultimately cleared. Given that some people have another agenda in the far east, Afghanistan and other places, Parliament and all our people must bear in mind the dangers that beset our troops.
Did the editor of the Daily Mirror approach the Ministry of Defence to say that the treatment of Iraqi prisoners had been brought to his attention and to ask for comment or did he publish without verification or notice? Should not we all keep quiet until investigations show what really happened?
§ Mr. IngramThe hon. Gentleman has rightly referred to a previous case, and I am sure that other right hon. and hon. Members could enumerate other examples of the media and others rushing to judgment before they have established the true facts of the matter involved. I do not think that this should be a "knock-the-press" day, or that we should knock the press in this statement and the question and answer session thereafter. The Mirror notified the Department early on Friday that it was going to publish the photograph. We did, therefore, have notice, but I understand that the photograph might have been in the newspaper's possession for some time. We did not have a lot of notice, and that is why, when we did get the information, we acted so promptly; I think that it is right that we did so.
§ Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst)Order. We must now move on: I have time-limited business to protect.