§ John McDonnellI beg to move amendment No. 15, in page 21, line 8, leave out from `(1) to 'of' in line 9 and insert
'An employer shall not make an offer or a threat to any worker with the purpose or the effect'.
§ Madam Deputy SpeakerWith this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 16, in page 21, line 35, after 'worker', insert 'or a trade union'.
§ [Madam Deputy Speaker]
§ No. 22, in page 21, line 36, leave out 'his' and insert `the worker's'.
§ No. 17, in page 21, line 36, leave out 'him' and insert `the worker'.
§ No. 18, in page 21, line 39, leave out
§
'which is recognised by his employer'.
§ No. 19, in page 22, line 14, after 'worker', insert 'or a trade union'.
§ No. 21, in page 22, line 15, leave out 'his' and insert `the worker's'.
§ No. 20, in page 22, line 15, leave out 'him' and insert `the worker'.
§ No. 23, in page 24, line 32 [Clause 26], leave out subsection (2) and insert—
§ '(2) For subsection (1) substitute—
- "A worker has the right not to be subjected to any detriment as an individual by any act, or any deliberate failure to act, by his employer done on the ground that—
- he was or sought to become a member of an independent trade union,
- he took part or sought to take part in the activities of an independent trade union at an appropriate time,
- he made use of or sought to make use of trade union services at an appropriate time,
- he failed to accept an offer made in contravention of section 145A or 145B, or
- he was not a member of any trade union or of a particular trade union or one of a number of particular trade unions.".'.
§
No. 13, in page 24, line 32, after '(1),' insert
'after "purpose" insert "or with the effect", after "part" in paragraph (b) insert "or seeking to take part",'.
§
No. 14, in page 24, line 34, after 'use', insert
'or seeking to make use'.
§
No. 24, in page 25, line 4, leave out 'worker's "making use" ' and insert
'worker having "made use of or sought to make use of".'.
§
No. 25, in page 25, line 9, leave out from 'as' to end of line 10 and insert
'subjecting the worker to detriment on that ground is to be treated as subjecting him to a detriment within subsection (1)(c)'.
§ No. 28, in page 25, leave out lines 11 to 14.
§ No. 29, in page 25, line 15, leave out '(2C)' and insert `(1)(d)'.
§ No. 7, in page 25, line 18, at end insert—
§ '(4A) After subsection (4), insert—
§
(4A) The payment of higher wages or higher rates of pay or overtime or the payment of signing on or other bonus or the provision of other benefits having a monetary value to other workers employed by the same employer shall not constitute a detriment to any worker not receiving the same or similar payments or benefits so long as—
- there is no inhibition in the contract of employment of the worker receiving the same from being a member of any trade union, and
- the said payments of higher wages or rates of pay or overtime or bonuses or the provision of other benefits are in accordance with the terms of a contract of employment and reasonably relate to the services provided by the worker under that contract.".'.
§ No. 30, in page 25, line 20, at end insert—
§
'(5A) In subsection (1) of section 148 of the 1992 Act, before the word 'purpose' insert "grounds on which, or, as the case may be,".'.
§ John McDonnellTime does not permit a full debate of the issues covered by the amendments, so I shall refer to only one element. It was pointed out on Second Reading that, as the Bill is framed, it is almost impossible to interpret the meaning of "purpose". An employee would have to demonstrate that an employer was subjecting the employee to a detriment for the purpose of preventing or deterring the worker from performing a protected activity or penalising the worker for doing so. Already we struggle in courts of law to demonstrate the purpose. The employer need only give some vaguely plausible reason in order to wriggle out of the provisions of the current legislation. I urge a re-examination of the clause to see whether we can tighten it and incorporate in the legislation the true spirit of the judgment in the Wilson and Palmer case.
9.15 pm
§ Mr. SutcliffeI appreciate my hon. Friend's brevity in dealing with a major issue in respect of the judgment in the Wilson and Palmer case.
The Government believe that we have clearly set out our position in clauses that were discussed earlier. We think this is an issue around purpose. I was happy to meet Mr. Wilson of the Wilson and Palmer case, who is satisfied with what the Government have done. I ask my hon. Friend to seek leave to withdraw the amendment, as while I accept that there is a variance between us, the Government have moved some way towards incorporating the Wilson and Palmer judgment.
§ John McDonnellI met Mr. Wilson as well on Friday, and I think that he has set his video recorder for this debate. I do not think that he is completely ecstatic with the Bill as it is now proposed, and I am sure that he would back further amendments. Perhaps we can discuss that at a later time. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Mr. BellinghamOn a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. My hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest (Mrs. Laing) would like to speak to our amendment No. 7.[ Interruption.] She was present at the start of the debate. Would it be possible for her to speak to amendment No. 7?
§ Madam Deputy SpeakerI did not see the hon. Lady in her place trying to catch my eye.
§ Mr. DjanoglyOn a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Not only did my hon. Friend the Member for 1367 Epping Forest (Mrs. Laing) stand up to catch your eye, but so did I, so I would appreciate it if that could be put on the record as well.
§ Madam Deputy SpeakerBoth hon. Members were standing, but it was at the point when the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) was withdrawing his amendment. I thought that we were moving to the next debate.
§ Mrs. LaingOn a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I fully appreciate that the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) was withdrawing amendment No. 15, but it was my intention to propose amendment No. 7, which stands on the amendment paper in my name and those of my hon. Friends.
§ Madam Deputy SpeakerI have to advise the hon. Lady that we have now come to amendment No. 3, and although she stood up, it was not clear that she wished to speak. There was no indication that she wished to speak on that particular amendment. I have to say that we have now reached amendment No. 3.