§ Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.-[Mr. Kemp.]
2.30 pm§ Jane Griffiths (Reading, East) (Lab)Although I am grateful for the opportunity to introduce the debate, I am a little amused, given the topic that I chose, because I suspect that the sitting hours of the House will not have an impact on me in the next Parliament. None the less, it is an important matter. I am well aware that there have been consultations, questionnaires and reviews on the matter and that discussions are continuing. However, I should like to share with hon. Members my view and perspective on the discussions that have taken place.
I was part of the large intake of hon. Members who entered the House in 1997. On that day, the composition of the House changed by more than 50 per cent. More than half the hon. Members who entered Parliament were new. As such, perhaps, many of us had a fresh perspective. It remains true that a majority of hon. Members have served for relatively few years. Perhaps, therefore, some of our views may be worth considering.
First, anyone who tries to become a Member of Parliament knows that that occupation is neither family friendly nor nine-to-five. It simply cannot be that. I also submit that anyone who tries to be a Member of Parliament will have been engaged in various activities, usually party political, which took up a considerable amount of their time. They will not therefore have lived the sort of life in which one goes to work, finishes, goes home and watches television. Many of our constituents do that, but we do not.
I know about all the discussions that have been held, so the purpose of today's debate is not to take hon. Members through what has been said because there will be reports, and there have been reviews and, indeed, early-day motions, which are often derided as political graffiti. I do not take that view. Early-day motions are a valuable opportunity to express parliamentary opinion and many of our constituents value them. As hon. Members know, constituents often approach us and seek our support for various early-day motions, although not those on the sitting hours of the House. It is a matter of great interest not to our constituents, but to us as Members of Parliament.
I want to refer briefly to a comment that my hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes, South-West (Dr. Starkey) made in the House. She sought, rather unusually, for parliamentary time not to be found to discuss sitting hours of the House. I have been a Member of the House for more than six years, and I have heard countless calls for parliamentary time to be found for one issue or another, but that is the only time that I have heard a request for parliamentary time not to be found. However, I can understand the thinking behind that request.
Between 1997 and 2001, the House had a great many late sittings, and I could understand the need for that. It is important for Government business to be done and for full debate to be had. But I can recall occasions where earlier in the day I had been fully cognisant of what a Bill was all about, but by 2 or 3 o'clock in the 590 morning my mind was less keen. Therefore, I quite enthusiastically supported the change to the sitting hours of the House to sit in the morning and to attempt to finish the day's business by the early evening. That seemed sensible.
Many of the arguments for that change in the sitting hours of the House were not mine. Various hon. Members say that since the House and Committees began to sit earlier in the day they find it difficult to drop their children off at school. That may be so, but in the 23 years of my working life before becoming a Member of the House, I never had a job that made express provision for me to drop my children off at school. I made my own arrangements, as working parents do. I find demands for hours that allow children to be dropped off at school, or whatever other things family life requires, a little excessive, given that most employment does not offer that facility, and there has been no suggestion from Government or anywhere else that it should.
Leaving that to one side, I supported a change to the sitting hours of the House because I believed, not for family friendly reasons but purely for reasons of efficiency, that our parliamentary business could be done in more normal hours, while still allowing us to do what we did before, and enabling the wider public to be informed of what we do here in this Chamber more efficiently. Before the sitting hours changed, it was quite difficult, in this era of 24-hour rolling news, for newspapers to report the proceedings of the House in an up-to-date fashion.
However, once the sitting hours changed, I found that the rosy dream of an efficient parliamentary day did not quite become reality. When I first entered the House, we sat until 10 o'clock in the evening, but in 1998, before the blanket change was made, the decision was made to finish at 7 o'clock on a Thursday evening, which I think was universally welcomed. It contributed to the efficiency of our business, and hon. Members could travel back to their constituencies on a Thursday evening.
My constituency is close to London and I can be there in an hour or an hour and a half, so for me the journey is not a problem. My hon. Friend the Member for Reading, West (Mr. Salter) boasts that he does not require to stay overnight in London because the journey to Reading is so easy, and that is right. When the sitting hours of the House were changed, some constituents said to me, "You do family friendly hours now, so you will be able to get back to Reading and come to meetings. We would like you invite you, and you will be able to be there." But even though I can leave this House and be in the centre of my constituency in just over an hour—transport permitting. and if everything goes well—I found that I simply could not get to such meetings and functions. I have been invited to speak at dinners, only to arrive when people were drinking their coffee. They had been told that they could expect me in time for the main course, but I simply could not do it, even though my constituency is very close to London. Of course, those Members whose constituencies are much further away cannot go home to them in the evenings; yet nothing happens in the House in the evenings, certainly not on Tuesdays and Wednesdays.
That offers an opportunity. I had a useful time this week, in that I was able to have dinner on Tuesday evening with other Members and a Minister. I shall not 591 share the content of that conversation with the House now, but it did constitute a good use of evening time, because it was an opportunity to sit down with parliamentary friends and colleagues and discuss issues. However, we have to ask ourselves what Parliament is for. It is very pleasant to sit down with friends and colleagues to have dinner and chat, but what is this House? It is a workplace and, at times, a tourist destination. Members should consider that point in the context of the reviews that have taken place.
Members should consider that this House is a workplace, a legislature and a tourist destination. Not only now but historically, those three aspects have been very hard to reconcile. Many Members have said that they find it difficult to arrange tours and to bring their constituents to the House since the change in the hours, yet constituents greatly welcome such visits. Again, this is not a problem for me, because my constituents in Reading can reach the House quite early in the day; however, many others do experience difficulty. I suspect that that difficulty can be resolved by considering other practical measures. I have my own thoughts on that issue, but I shall not share them with the House now, given the little time available.
I feel strongly that we should move away from the notion of family friendly hours and normal working hours, because those are impossible to achieve for Members of this House. After all, only about one in three of Britain's work force works anything approximating a nine-to-five day, or normal working hours. We should move away from those notions, to which the media refer as a kind of shorthand. Of course, the attempt was made in the media to suggest that we were voting for shorter hours for ourselves, which we were not. The number of hours that the House sits has barely changed at all.
As a Member of this House, I have had the great opportunity and privilege to visit Parliaments in other parts of the world, and I recall in particular my visit to the Mozambique Parliament in 2002. I asked the Members of that Parliament what time it began sitting, to which they replied, "Eight-thirty in the morning." The notion of sitting at 8.30 am would strike horror into the hearts of many Members, but that comment made me think. I asked, "Does everyone turn up at 8.30 am?" I was told, "Oh yes, we have to. There is a roll call, and if you're not there you get into trouble."
I have heard it said by hon. Members who describe themselves as modernisers that the new—now a year old—sitting hours could prevent hon. Members from engaging in other occupations, but they do not, because it is not compulsory to attend in the Chamber. Hon. Members could be elsewhere doing all manner of things: we do not know; we know what they are doing only when we see them here. I wish fervently that whenever the House is sitting, more hon. Members would be in their places. I ask the Minister to reflect a little on what I have said, as I know that there will be further deliberations.
§ The Deputy Leader of the House of Commons(Mr. Phil Woolas)I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing the debate, which, as the Committees of the House progress their deliberations, is timely. As the House 592 knows from the statements of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House, his deliberations—based on formal and informal consultations—have reached what could be described as fever pitch in the past few weeks. I put on record my admiration for her, the dignity with which she has conducted herself, and the seriousness with which she has presented her arguments. I congratulate her on all of that.
I should like to respond briefly to a few of my hon. Friend's points and to put on record the Government's view of the position on the sitting hours of the House. She rightly said that, whatever sitting hours or days of the week are determined for the House to conduct its business, it is recognised everywhere that the work of MPs and the House is not a 9 to 5 job. Under whatever arrangements are made, it is unlikely to be family-friendly. My view, which is borne out by the testament of Members throughout the House over the years, is that it is often MPs' families who bear the heaviest burden as a result of the work load that inevitably and rightly falls on hon. Members.
My hon. Friend said that the argument in favour of change was not particularly that it was family-friendly. The experience of recent months has been that one individual Member's circumstances differ so much from those of their colleagues that it would be impossible to set sitting times throughout the year that would be convenient for all MPs with families. There are many differences, with some families based in constituencies, others in inner London, so it is difficult to find arrangements suitable for one and all. I strongly agree with my hon. Friend, however, about the dangers of sending out the message that we are somehow feathering our own beds for our benefit in ways that are not available to members of the public. Not many of my constituents in Oldham, East can take their children to school before starting work in the morning, so my hon. Friend makes a good practical point about that. However, many Members who do not see their children other than in the morning do benefit from the ability to do so, and the House should take that into account.
I noted my hon. Friend's point about the practicalities of the differential impacts on different Members, which depend on where their constituencies are. She said that she could not often make it back to Reading in time for coffee, let alone the soup, or she might have said the cheese and biscuits. If I make it back to Oldham for last orders, even on our 6 o'clock finish on a Thursday, I am grateful. The impacts are different. My hon. Friend's analysis of the House as a workplace, a legislature and an attraction for visitors was important and accurate.
My hon. Friend mentioned that the Parliament of Mozambique sat at 8.30 am. In doing my research for this debate, I was greatly assisted by the House authorities and, as ever, by the Library. I discovered that the debate about sitting times first began in 1570 when the House met from 8 am to 11 am or noon, depending on the business of the day. That was the norm from 1571 until the civil war. Throughout the centuries, the sitting hours of the House have been subject to votes and to debates that were no doubt as vigorous and robust as those we hold currently.
The latest time ever appointed for the House to meet was 10 pm on 11 August 1853, to enable Members to attend the Spithead naval review. The research paper shows that the advent of what the modern world 593 understands as the weekend—Saturday and Sunday off—came about, in part, because the House at one time sat regularly on Saturdays. The demise of Saturday sittings began in 1732, under the influence of Sir Robert Walpole, so that he
might secure at least one day's hunting a week".The House voted to allow Members to go hunting, and that was the advent of the weekend. In the 19th century, the House always adjourned on Derby day, even if it did not fall in the Whitsun recess.Although such debates have been around for centuries, this debate is important. The Government's intention was and is, in part, to be family-friendly, in part, of course to improve the efficiency of the working of the House and, in part, to influence public perception—not in a crude attempt to fit in with the daily news agenda, although that is an important consideration if we want the public to have access to the work and debates of the House, but to send a message to the country and the wider world that this place is modern.
I think that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House has widespread support for ruling out the idea of ever returning to limitless debates that went on through the night. That often gave rise to a situation whereby in Parliament Wednesday would still be Tuesday because we had sat through the night, yet in the real world Wednesday was, of course, Wednesday.
I am glad that my hon. Friend the Member for Reading, East broadly supports the change in sitting hours, and I share her view that the new hours are more in keeping with the modern world. They send out a much more modern and family-friendly message to our constituents, which is important.
The House will know that, at present, the Procedure Committee is undertaking a detailed survey of Members' attitudes towards sitting times and we await the publication of its findings with interest. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the House has held consultations, informally with Members on both sides of the House, and formally through the Modernisation Committee, which is charged to make recommendations on the matter.
It is clear that many Members would like some adjustment. Early-day motion 652, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Burnley (Mr. Pike), has attracted 66 signatures and it is clear from all the consultations and discussions that the House is divided. There are strong views in favour of reverting back to Tuesday evening sittings. Some Members want to sit on Wednesday evenings and some argue that we should not sit on Fridays, to allow Members more time in their constituencies, when schools, factories and so on are open. Unfortunately, any suggestion for change is inevitably reported in some parts of the news media as a retrograde step—that Members are trying to have longer holidays and take more time off. In fact, my experience is that, on the whole, Members of Parliament work extremely hard and provide a very good public service.
I do not say that from a partisan point of view. Public opinion research shows that although, in general, the standing of politicians is low, that is not the case for 594 individual Members of Parliament in their local constituencies. When local constituents are asked, "Does your MP do a good job on your behalf?", the answer—irrespective of political party—is overwhelming: 80 per cent. of people say, "Yes, they do." I am glad to report to the House that at least we are respected among our local constituents. The media filter those matters and often misinterpret them. Someone I think that it was Enoch Powell—said that a politician complaining about the media is like a fisherman complaining about the sea.
My right hon. Friend the Leader of the House has made it clear that it would be pointless to hold a vote that simply replicates and reinforces the division of opinion. It is important for people on all sides of the argument to reach a compromise on the way forward, and he has rightly urged hon. Members to discuss how we may move the matter forward.
The early-day motion argues that we should examine Tuesday evenings and move away from Fridays. I know that many hon. Members would like to dedicate Fridays to constituency business and would favour using Tuesday or Wednesday evenings instead. My right hon. Friend has indicated that the Modernisation Committee will explore that option as part of its review.
Inevitably, there are difficulties: moving private Members' business from Friday would not be straightforward and raises a number of serious questions. For example, would one allocate every Tuesday evening, or just some? Some 22 evenings would be required to match the 13 Friday sittings in each Session—how would one divide those days between Second Reading and the remaining stages of the Bill? If Divisions at 7 pm eroded the three-hour period, would there be enough time for a Second Reading debate, arid would a single evening be sufficient for the remaining stages of the Bill? It might require a thorough rethink of how we approach private Members' Bills.
In conclusion, my right hon. Friend has said to the House that we want to move forward, but only on the basis of consensus. If hon. Members remain divided, the status quo must continue. The current arrangements will take us through to the end of the Parliament. They will be reviewed before the end of the Parliament, and some of the provisions are, of course, subject to review by motions at the end of the Session.
I welcome the opportunity to put the Government's position on record, and I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing the debate and on the manner in which she presented her sound arguments. I look forward to the findings of the Procedure Committee and the recommendations of the Modernisation Committee in order to settle the issue to the benefit of all hon. Members and to enhance the reputation and public standing of the House. The reputation of the House of Commons is growing, and it is clear that Parliament remains the centre of public policy debate and of national life. Its sovereignty is under attack from many quarters, and my right hon. Friend and I have the job of securing that sovereignty on behalf of the people.
§ Question put and agreed to.
§ Adjourned accordingly at two minutes to Three o'clock.