POWER TO PAY GRANT (Hansard, 15 September 2003)

§ Mr. Raynsford
I beg to move, That this House agrees with the Lords in the said amendment.

Mr. Deputy Speaker
With this it will be convenient to consider Lords amendments Nos. 8 to 12.

§ Mr. Raynsford
Lords amendment No. 11 will remove clause 32, which would enable a Minister or the National Assembly for Wales to seek any information necessary when considering the award of a grant to an authority under clause 31. It will also allow Ministers to require retrospective information on the way in which a grant has been used. Clause 32 provides that a local authority must supply such information. In the light of concerns expressed in Committee and in another place about the wide scope of that power, we agreed to look at it again.
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By contrast, clause 31(3) allows conditions to be attached to the payment of grant. Such a condition could be that the receiving authority must supply certain information, if ever necessary. That power is much more limited in scope, as it is linked to the actual payment of the grant. It is also entirely in keeping with our policy of removing unnecessary restrictions and burdens on local authorities. The provision makes a separate clause unnecessary. To enable the National Assembly for Wales to use the grant-making power, it makes sense to remove clause 34 and to include its provisions in clause 31.

§ Mr. Hammond
The deletion of clause 32 is welcome. It was an unnecessary additional power for the Secretary of State to require information to be delivered by local authorities. As Lord Rooker said in the other place, and the Minister repeated, there are other ways of securing information, if it is really required, after a grant is paid rather than at the time when the Secretary of State is merely contemplating payment under the powers in clause 31(4). We have no problem with that.
Perhaps I am having a bad day, but I have a little more difficulty in understanding the logic of the Welsh provisions. Lord Rooker told the House of Lords that because of the deletion of clause 32 there was no longer any need for clause 34, which, in respect of Welsh local authorities, extended the definition of "Minister" to include the Welsh Assembly. If the essentially technical changes that remove clause 34, and insert the relevant amendments in clause 31, are intended to tidy up the Bill so that there is not a separate reference to Wales in 647 clause 34, I have no objection to them—but that is not what Lord Rooker and the Minister say. They say that it is a change consequential upon the deletion of clause 32—in other words, that clause 34 is no longer needed owing to the deletion of clause 32. I am afraid that I have not been able to work out how the one follows logically from the other. Will the Minister explain how the wholly laudable decision to drop clause 32 makes clause 34 redundant in such a way as to make the other amendments consequential on the deletion of clause 32 instead of mere redrafting and tidying amendments? As I cannot see the chain of causality, I am worried that I may be missing something important. If so, no doubt the Minister will enlighten me.

§ Matthew Green
We welcome the removal of clause 32, which was triggered by amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr. Davey). The clauses provided for powers on the requiring of information that, with the benefit of time over the summer, the Minister rightly decided were not needed. The Welsh provisions are merely a tidying exercise; as such, we are happy with them.

§ Mr. Raynsford
The hon. Member for Ludlow (Matthew Green) is right that this is purely and simply a tidying measure in respect of Wales.
I can understand why the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge is confused about the interrelationship of references to a Minister of the Crown and to the National Assembly for Wales in the four clauses, so I shall try to clarify the consequences of the amendments. Originally, clause 31 gave powers for Ministers to pay grants to a local authority, clause 32 gave additional powers for Ministers to require information in that respect, and clause 34 extended references to a Minister to include the National Assembly for Wales. The new provisions of clause 31 make it clear that Ministers can make grants to local authorities in England and that Ministers or the National Assembly for Wales may pay grant to local authorities in Wales. There is therefore no need for the separate provisions of clause 34, which essentially imply that a reference to a Minister should be taken to cover the National Assembly for Wales. I hope that that clarifies the provision and puts the hon. Gentleman's mind at rest.

§ Mr. Hammond
rose—

§ Mr. Raynsford
I fear that it does not.

§ Mr. Hammond
If the Minister is acknowledging that the demise of clause 34 is in no way consequent upon the demise of clause 32, I will be happy. However, Lord Rooker clearly stated that clause 34 was no longer necessary as a result of the deletion of clause 32. It seems to me that clause 34 and the changes to clause 31 are self-contained, but clause 32 is a different matter.

§ Mr. Raynsford
I thought I had explained that the two were interdependent. We decided that clause 32 could be removed from the Bill only when we were satisfied that the powers under clause 31, specifically subsection (4), would enable Ministers or the National Assembly for Wales to obtain the information necessary to satisfy 648 them when making a grant. Clause 34 extended to the Welsh Assembly the powers that were otherwise granted only to the Minister. That is the nature of the interrelationship.
I accept that it is a complex matter, and I understand the hon. Gentleman's difficulties, but I hope that he agrees that the outcome is better. The change reduces by two the number of clauses, reduces an unnecessary burden on local authorities and streamlines the procedure for ensuring that grants can be paid in a suitable framework with the ability of the grant-giving body—a Minister or the National Assembly for Wales—to obtain the information that it needs to satisfy himself or itself that the grant will be spent for the purposes for which it is made. I hope that the hon. Gentleman agrees and that the amendments can be accepted.