HC Deb 28 October 2003 vol 412 cc258-74
Mr. Wiggin

I beg to move amendment No. 13, in page 2, line 18, leave out 'with the agreement of' and insert 'following consultation with'.

Madam Deputy Speaker

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 14, in page 2, line 20, leave out 'with the agreement of' and insert 'following consultation with'.

No. 15, in page 2, line 23, at end insert— '(5) The power under subsection (1) is exercisable following consultation with the relevant local authorities. No. 17, in clause 5, page 4, line 9, after 'may', insert 'with the agreement of the relevant waste disposal authorities'.

Mr. Wiggin

One can but try in this business, Madam Deputy Speaker.

This group of amendments seeks to ensure that physical consultation, not just things involving vague terms such as "agreement", takes place between the Secretary of State and all allocating authorities before any decision on targets is made in regulation by the Secretary of State. It also seeks to ensure that regulations are not enforced, without proper discussions, by the affected UK countries that limit the Secretary of State's power over devolved authorities. This is one of the most important areas of this Bill, and I hope that the Government will take our points seriously. What we are seeking to do is ensure that the Government, who, as the hon. Member for Guildford (Sue Doughty) rightly pointed out, are tiptoeing forward in a timid fashion—

It being one hour before the moment of interruption, MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER, pursuant to Order [20 March], put forthwith the Questions necessary for the disposal of proceedings to be concluded at that hour.

Government amendments Nos. 37 to 58 agreed to.

Order for Third Reading read.

6 pm

Mr. Morley

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.

I start by putting on record my appreciation of the generally constructive way in which Members on both sides of the House have approached the Bill at all stages. I am only sorry that I did not see the Bill through in Committee, and that I was not involved with the whole process. It is an important and interesting Bill, which raises a number of key issues that I have been happy to debate with Members on both sides of the House.

I appreciate that one of the major areas of concern has been the potential impact of the Bill on incineration. I have had a difference of opinion with some hon. Members on that, and we will have to agree to disagree on the matter. Even on that subject, however, I accept that some issues, such as the health effects, need to be considered carefully. I also accept that independent research is necessary. These days, research on health effects of any kind must be done by independent bodies, which is important.

I also believe that the statutory recycling and composting targets that have been set by the Government will reduce the pressures on incineration, to which some Members have referred. I repeat, however, that it is important that local authorities, through their joint strategies, consider what is the best way forward within the structure of our waste hierarchy, which I am glad to say has received universal support from the House.

David Taylor (North-West Leicestershire)

Does my hon. Friend accept that authorities such as mine in North-West Leicestershire, whose recycling levels are low, are being encouraged by the Government to increase those levels and to introduce schemes that are significantly more expensive, while having fairly low levels of grant settlement? Does he believe that a more sympathetic approach to authorities of that kind is likely?

Mr. Morley

Whatever resources are available, they are never enough, whatever organisation is involved. The block in terms of the resources available to local authorities for waste and environmental protection, however, has increased significantly and substantially in the last few years. A lot of additional money has therefore gone to local authorities to reflect the fact that we want to see progress on waste and recycling. I said earlier that I have been heartened by the progress made in the last few years by local authorities, some of which have dramatically increased the rate of reuse and recycling. Apart from the increase in the cultural and environmental protection block, additional money has been made available through the challenge fund, and assistance and advice is available through the waste implementation programme. A range of measures has therefore been put in place to assist local authorities to meet their targets. Of course, when money goes to local authorities through the block, it is for them to decide how they allocate resources according to their priorities. As my hon. Friend knows, we have set local authorities targets and although the targets are ambitious, we expect them to be met. That is because a more sustainable approach on waste management is important both nationally and locally.

Increasing the amount of re-use, recycling and waste minimisation will give financial advantages to local authorities—the Bill provides for such an advantage. Local authorities will be set limits on landfill and if they make fast progress in getting below the limits, they will receive tradeable credits that will give them a financial advantage. We have a comprehensive package of measures to encourage and support local authorities to meet targets.

The relationship between waste disposal and waste collection authorities has understandably featured strongly in the debate. Successful waste management depends on close and constructive relationships between those authorities, although we acknowledge that there can be tensions, not least political ones, from time to time. We have touched on that during our consideration of the Bill. It is in the interests of both parties and the people whom they represent for them to work together and co-operate, which is why we are trying to encourage that through the joint municipal waste strategies that we agreed on Report. I know that those issues were of interest to hon. Members during the Bill's progress and we have honoured our commitments.

Hon. Members have a range of interests in waste and recognise that the Bill represents an innovative step forward on the handling of waste. By making use of economic instruments, the Government recognise that prescription alone is not always the best way forward. It is sometimes better to supply the means by which to achieve the ends, and it is sometimes valuable to introduce financial instruments to provide levers for local authorities. We have had a broader discussion on other possible financial levers and it is always worth considering them. The examination of the range of incentives and financial instruments that we could use to achieve our waste targets and a generally sustainable approach is ongoing rather than static.

We are sometimes accused of merely following the European Union's lead on waste rather than taking the initiative, but the Bill's provisions on landfill and the scheme that will follow provide evidence to the contrary. Although it is true that many European countries have a longer and better established system of recycling than our country and we are pushing forward to catch up, the Bill will introduce what we understand to be the first trading scheme in the world involving waste. Moreover, the European Commission has expressed a strong interest in the scheme and has asked for views on the use of waste trading schemes in its communication on a thematic strategy for waste prevention and recycling. We expect our ideas to be studied closely by Commission officials. I believe that the Bill will introduce pioneering new techniques that will influence other countries.

We have spent little time discussing emissions trading, but its impact should not be underestimated. The Bill supports the world's first economy-wide greenhouse gas emissions trading scheme with statutory penalties. Climate change is the subject of an important international commitment that we have made, especially through the Kyoto protocol, and the Bill will help the UK to deliver on its commitments.

There is a clear link between the two main aspects of the Bill. One of the principal reasons for tackling waste generation and management is to reduce the production of greenhouse gases. The Bill addresses such challenges with the use of economic instruments that will stimulate reductions in the emission of pollutants and make us less reliant on landfill in the most economically efficient manner.

The Bill is important. It will have a strong impact on our approach to sustainable development and the various targets that the UK must meet. Opposition Members have not opposed the principles behind it. Most of the discussion has focused on whether it could go further and do other things. That is legitimate and we need to consider those issues. I hope that I have convinced hon. Members that although the Bill is not an appropriate vehicle for all the proposed measures, I do not disagree with many of the points made, and I hope to address those within the work streams that I outlined.

I believe that progress will be made on all issues raised. They are important. Hon. Members on both sides of the House agree about what we must do to minimise waste and to take a more sustainable approach to waste management. The process is dynamic and ongoing. We intend to build on what we have put in place and to review those measures. Some ideas, suggestions and points raised may be incorporated in that process.

As I said, I am grateful for the constructive and thoughtful way in which hon. Members approached their work. The Bill is better than when it started. We have taken into account the issues raised and it has been amended accordingly. It is only right and proper to put on the record my appreciation of the work by my right hon. Friend the Member for Oldham, West and Royton (Mr. Meacher), who was involved in the Committee stage. Like him, I am deeply interested in showing that protecting our environment is a high priority for both DEFRA and the Government. I accept that the problem is not merely DEFRA's responsibility. It cuts across Departments and influences the shape of Government policies on sustainability, both nationally and locally. The Bill will make a major contribution to achieving that end.

I thank Committee members, who worked hard on the Bill, and all hon. Members who contributed to the debate, especially Labour Members. I also acknowledge the work of DEFRA officials and their enormous commitment to the Bill. They have been involved in all its stages and have shaped it so that it is a pioneering Bill that sets the pace on how we use financial instruments to deal with landfill and to construct a sustainable agenda. It will influence many other EU countries.

6.12 pm
Mr. Wiggin

I associate myself with the Minister's remarks on the work of the Committee and extend my thanks to my hon. Friends the Members for Mid-Bedfordshire (Mr. Sayeed), for Tatton (Mr. Osborne), for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker) and, of course, for South Holland and The Deepings (Mr. Hayes), who led us in Committee. The Minister made some important points, especially on how we found ourselves in agreement on much of the Bill. He has been extremely agreeable and it is always a pleasure to debate such important issues with him.

I do not oppose the Bill's content, but its potential impact on the whole waste policy is a huge wasted opportunity. It does not provide a strategy for all types of waste, which is what the UK really needs. The Government have failed to piece the waste issue together despite their move to commit us to numerous EU waste-related directives. We are fast on our way to missing all our immediate waste targets. We are supposed to reduce landfill to 75 per cent. of the 1995 levels by 2010, but last year approximately 91 per cent. of our waste still went to landfill. The target to recycle 25 per cent. of municipal solid waste by 2005 will not only cause us embarrassment but is likely to cost us more than £180 million a year in fines.

The Bill is a step in the right direction to compliance with the landfill directive, but it does not begin to address how we can deliver on the waste electrical and electronic equipment, end-of-life vehicles, and packaging waste directives, not to mention the encroaching hazardous waste disaster.

The fundamental flaw in the Bill is its narrow, inadequate scope. I think that the Minister recognises that; he touched on it in his comments. There is no connection between all waste legislation, so the Bill is an inadequate response to all the EU directives that influence different waste streams. Our priority should be the minimisation of waste as well as its final disposal.

In a letter to me dated 29 April, the former Minister, the right hon. Member for Oldham, West and Royton (Mr. Meacher) wrote: The overall intention of the Bill and indeed our waste strategy is to move waste up the hierarchy so that resource use is improved and less waste is just dumped. The amount of waste produced is growing, which, combined with the fact that the amount sent to landfill is massively more than the amount allowed, makes the reality of fulfilling the landfill directive a mere dream.

Rather than aiding local authorities in minimising their waste at source, the Bill will penalise them in their disposal. Again, a broader context to waste management and landfilling is needed to come to terms with the complexity of waste policy. The Bill's penalty system will not encourage best environmental practice, but may instead drive local authorities to concentrate on avoiding fines for breaches.

There is no freedom in the Bill for local authorities to offer households incentives to recycle more and to minimise waste in the first place, and that is a great shame. Exactly the opposite will happen: a system of penalties will prevent local authorities from concentrating on diverting waste from landfill to recycling, as they will have to meet statutory targets in non-target years. Incentives work better, and the Bill neither encourages nor allows for best environmental practice.

Any money from fines or landfill tax must go straight hack to local authorities to finance recycling schemes instead of lining the Chancellor's pocket. Waste disposal authorities need all the assistance they can get. If the Government insist on waste disposal authorities achieving set targets, even in non-target years, they need capital to afford the required waste management infrastructure. Available funding for local authorities and the necessary expenditure for compliance with waste objectives is unbalanced. The Government must recognise in legislation that the current funding is inadequate.

Another point of contention is that although there is no attempt in the Bill to deal with the energy from waste, fly tipping or planning procedures, it will inevitably have a knock-on effect on all those issues. Ignoring them by exclusion will not mean that they disappear. We must come to a point in the very near future when the Government have to deal with all waste legislation in a comprehensive way; we have not seen that in the Bill.

Incineration is undoubtedly unpopular with local people, but is not the reality that it offers the only way for local authorities to meet their stringent targets on time?; The Government cannot have it both ways—setting such targets with penalties but not giving any support or assistance to the local authorities that have to achieve them. Sweden and the Netherlands are examples of countries with large-scale incineration policies, yet both have a serious commitment to the environment. They use only incinerators that recover energy from waste. The Minister knows how strongly I feel about that. A decision in legislation must be made on incineration soon, and I suggest that we take into account the experience and lessons of other European countries with far better waste management track records than our own rather dismal one.

The Bill fails to consider landfill, recycling and incineration together. Fly tipping should possibly be made a criminal offence, as I suggested to the Minister in Committee. That matter is important, and we need not only to deal with the fly tipper but to introduce a duty of ownership of fly-tipped waste. There would then be a duty on people to behave responsibly in dealing with their waste.

Why does the Bill deal only with biodegradable waste allowances when such waste makes up only 7 per cent. of the total? What about hazardous waste? When will the Government get round to dealing with the end of co-disposal of hazardous waste, which is supposed to happen by 16 July 2004—in nine months? I shall not mention the failure to transpose the new EU hazardous waste list into national legislation. That, along with the WEEE, end-of-life vehicles and packaging waste directives, will add to the duties of local authorities. The Bill does not, in its landfill targets, account for the further costs, rules and penalties that will result from those. Consequently, the assessed regulatory impact is an underestimate.

Mention of the impact of removing the very high temperature necessary to kill pathogens in composted food was also removed from the Bill, and if another foot and mouth crisis is to be avoided, the Government must realise that they have created a serious risk of food waste harbouring disease being spread on our fields as compost. I hope that if there is any further evidence that suggests that such waste carries a risk, the Government will review that gamble very carefully.

The implications of the borrowing and banking of landfill allowances in clause 6 are also a concern as they may act as a disincentive for local authorities to make the immediate decisions and improvements necessary. That will reduce the inclination to trade. A longer-term vision is necessary, and a realistic assessment of the cost of implementing the Bill is essential.

We are concerned about what is omitted from the Bill. The landfill directive is treated in isolation, and other waste management directives and problems are ignored. The chance to provide the best overall waste management policy in the Bill has been lost, leaving waste management as vulnerable, uncertain and unconnected as it was before. Thanks to the Government's piecemeal approach to EU legislation and targets, the Bill is a potential environmental, legal and financial catastrophe.

6.20 pm
Norman Baker

I am not quite as downbeat as the hon. Member for Leominster (Mr. Wiggin), although I do not disagree with the thrust of his comments. It was interesting to see how much common ground there was between Conservative, Liberal Democrat and, indeed, Labour Members in Committee, although they voted different ways on amendments and new clauses.

I thank the Minister for his conciliatory, helpful and courteous summary, a welcome approach that he nearly always takes. I thank his predecessor, the right hon. Member for Oldham, West and Royton (Mr. Meacher), who tried to engage with serious issues in the Bill. It struck me that he always wanted to go slightly further than the civil servants wanted, which may be one reason why he is no longer in a ministerial position. I thank the plethora of Conservative spokesmen who have shared Opposition responsibilities with me, including the hon. Members for Aylesbury (Mr. Lidington), for Leominster (Mr. Wiggin), for South Holland and The Deepings (Mr. Hayes) and for Mid-Bedfordshire (Mr. Sayeed). There may have been one or two others, but we certainly got through a few during our proceedings. I thank other Committee members who made the Bill worth while and approached our discussions in a serious but friendly way.

I will not claim that the Bill is much improved, but it has been helpfully tweaked at the end of its progress. It still has a big fault, which I shall not labour, as it has been referred to by other Members today. It deals with only one strand of the waste hierarchy, and was introduced for no purpose other than to fulfil an EU directive on the implementation of the landfill directive. Another of the Bill's failures concerns the fact that is not possible to change one bit of the hierarchy without considering the effect on the rest of the hierarchy. It gets landfill provisions right in line with the EU directive but goes wrong by failing to ask what will happen to waste that is not landfilled, and whether we should try to encourage particular schemes. The Bill does not discourage incineration, which is now officially a disposal technique. Unfortunately, for reasons that have been given today, it encourages it.

To return to comments that I made on Second Reading, we shall not oppose the Bill. In fact, we welcome it as far as it goes. It is innovative and right to use financial instruments to achieve environmental ends. The Liberal Democrats are keen on that, and we want to see more of it. The scheme created by the Bill is innovative—let us be honest about that—and the environment will be marginally better as a consequence. We shall therefore support the Bill as we did on Second Reading. However, our criticism is the same as criticism levelled at the Water Bill—as the hon. Member for Leominster rightly said, it is not what is in the Bill but what is not that is of concern to Members. It has been argued that we cannot discuss the Water Bill without looking in parallel at the water framework directive. Similarly, it could be argued that we cannot discuss the Waste and Emissions Trading Bill without considering, in parallel, effects on all parts of the hierarchy. I am afraid that the Government have not undertaken such a consideration.

The Minister said that the environment remains a high priority for DEFRA, and I believe that. However, in the period of just over a year in which I have been an environment spokesman, there has not been a single oral statement by the Secretary of State on an environmental issue. There has been one on hunting, but not on environmental issues. The Minister may therefore need to think about DEFRA's priorities. He does not need to convince Opposition Members of the need to take action but his colleagues in the Department of Trade and Industry and the Treasury. My honest judgment, as I have told the Secretary of State, is that DEFRA's instincts are, by and large, right, and it tries to do the right thing. However, it is a small player compared with the DTI and the Treasury, which will not play ball. I am keen not to attack DEFRA, which I genuinely want to help, but the Minister must punch above his weight when dealing with some of his colleagues in the DTI.

Earlier, I discussed printer cartridges in relation to the WEEE directive. All the evidence that I am getting from all sides of industry and elsewhere, and from my contacts in the European Union, suggests that DEFRA is making the right noises, the DTI is making the wrong noises, and the DTI is going to win. That is one small example. The Minister must make sure that DEFRA starts winning some of the battles in which the environment should come first, and he must put the DTI and the Treasury in their place, if he can do that, to some extent at least. I say that to the Minister in all sincerity; I want to see him and his colleagues in DEFRA doing it.

There are a number of omissions from the Bill, but I will not run through them. The hon. Member for Leominster touched on those. Fly tipping is a serious issue and I am not convinced that the Government have got hold of it. The Minister will recall that in Committee we tabled a new clause to deal with that, which the Government did not accept. However, the Home Secretary is to introduce some proposals to deal with part of the problem, and there have been improvements in the sentencing guidelines. I hope that will help. As the Minister knows, 600,000 tonnes of material was fly-tipped in the country in the last year for which figures were given in a parliamentary answer to me, so fly tipping is a big issue.

I hope that the Minister will—I think that he will—take away the comments made not just on Report and Third Reading, but in Committee. Even if the Government do not want to accept amendments from the Opposition, it is important that they understand why they were tabled and try to find ways of ensuring that the Government's own waste hierarchy is delivered. That is what we all want. We want the Government to succeed with their waste hierarchy. The amendments that we tabled, and those of the Conservatives too, I think, have been designed to achieve just that. They were not wrecking amendments, but supporting amendments.

I thank the Minister for his summing-up. I hope that he will take these comments on board, that the measures that the Government have implemented will bring about the waste hierarchy that he wants, and that he will consider further measures, hopefully in a holistic way.

6.26 pm
Mr. Sayeed

I would call this a two-cheers Bill—one cheer for the fact that it is right in principle, and another cheer because it goes some way in the direction in which we all want to proceed, but it lacks the third cheer because it is rather incoherent. It does not link up with all the other levers of action that are essential if we are to enhance the environmental protection of our country and start dealing with waste as it should be dealt with.

The real problem is that the Bill is far too narrowly drawn. It does not provide a comprehensive strategy for all forms of waste. I know the Minister said that he intends to introduce legislation later to do that. I regret that, during the exhaustive consideration in Committee, the Government seemed incapable of understanding that a single portfolio Bill would send out signals to local authorities that were much more coherent, much easier to follow and far more powerful. I hope that we can all agree that legislation is at its best when it is formulated as a vehicle to drive forward a vision that is long term, holistic and sustainable. The Bill gets only two cheers because it is a singular, isolated and panic-stricken reaction to a European demand that the UK is unlikely to meet.

Angela Watkinson (Upminster)

Does my hon. Friend agree that one omission from the Bill is that it does not deal with developing uses for recycled materials? Would it not be easier for local authorities to encourage people to recycle more if they knew what would be done with the material and could see that there was some point to recycling—that there was an end-product? The markets need to be developed.

Mr. Sayeed

My hon. Friend makes a very good point. It is one of the points that I made on Report, which is why I think it is such an excellent one.

The Bill could have, first, established a system for collecting waste that makes it easier and cheaper to recycle, but it does not. Secondly, the Bill could have included incentives to assist those who use recyclates. There could have been tax incentives or demands that certain products contain a specific percentage of recyclates. The Bill does not contain any such incentives. It makes demands of local authorities and imposes penalties on them, but it does not give them the means to undertake all the expensive work that will be necessary. It also fails to encourage local authorities to take the most environmentally friendly option.

I am sure that the Minister will have read the record of what occurred in Committee, where I proposed that money that the Government raised through penalties should be hypothecated back to local authorities to enable them to invest in the recycling plants that they would need. The Government ignored that proposal. I also proposed that, instead of going to the Chancellor to assist him in filling part of the £9 billion, £12 billion or £17 billion hole that he and his policies have created, part of the considerable increase in landfill tax should go to local authorities to enable them to do what we want them to do—deal with waste in the most environmentally friendly manner. They also ignored that proposal. That is profoundly regrettable, because we all agree on what we are trying to achieve. We all agree that we produce too much waste, that we do not deal with it properly and that the waste that we produce is poisoning us. The Bill does not give local authorities incentives to deal with the problem, to ensure that we leave behind us a cleaner society and country than we inherited.

The Minister tried to persuade us that the Government have a thoroughly coherent strategy, but he certainly failed to persuade Opposition Members and probably failed to convince some of his colleagues. There is no doubt in my mind that the effect of the Bill—we have exhaustively explored the reasons why—will be more incineration. I suggest that he read the Friends of the Earth briefing about Norfolk having voted for residual waste treatment for 64 per cent. of its waste. Together with the example in Sussex that I cited, that pamphlet demonstrates that local authorities will not be able to deal with their waste except by incineration.

As the Minister believes that the Government are operating in a coherent fashion, perhaps he can assist me. The Government have imposed tens of thousands more houses on Bedfordshire. Bedfordshire intends to build some of them on a brownfield site.

Mr. Morley

Excellent.

Mr. Sayeed

I agree. The houses will be built at a place called Elstow. However, the intention is to locate a landfill site alongside them. The Minister believes that the Government are coherent, the Government have said that they want all these new houses, and he says that he does not like landfill—and I agree. In that case, can I be assured that, when I come to see the Government and complain about the landfill site that is being established next door to a brand-new development of many thousands of houses, they will say no to that site?

Mr. Morley

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is aware that the decision on the landfill site and, indeed, the houses, will be taken by the local planning authority.

Mr. Sayeed

But the Minister knows that a Secretary of State can, if he wishes, take such a decision if it is sent up the system. I trust that the Minister, who tells us that the Government are so coherent, will ensure that we do not have a landfill site that we do not want next to houses that the Government do want. That would be extremely helpful and a genuine example of coherent government.

The Bill does deserve two cheers. Ministers have, on occasion, been helpful—the Minister's remarks at the start of Third Reading were particularly so. He clearly recognises that this extremely narrowly drawn Bill might have been better had it had been drawn rather wider, although I realise that he cannot admit that. I hope that, in the near future, the ends of the strings will he tied together and we will get a series of measures that send the right signals to local authorities in dealing with waste—namely, that they should follow the hierarchy and encourage less waste to be produced, then deal with it in the most effective, environmentally friendly manner, provided that that is commercially sustainable. If the Minister can promise the House that that is the Government's aim and that they will fulfil it in the very near future, I shall be a happy man.

6.37 pm
Gregory Barker

It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Bedfordshire (Mr. Sayeed), particularly as he made such an important contribution in Committee. I, too, served on the Committee and found its proceedings instructive, good-humoured and valuable. Although, sadly, few of the amendments that we discussed found their way into the Bill, our discourse was extremely worthwhile. There was a fair degree of unanimity on the importance of the subject matter, and we heard some remarkably eloquent speeches. It proved to be the swan song of the right hon. Member for Oldham, West and Royton (Mr. Meacher), who will be greatly missed following his departure from the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs.

Nevertheless, the Bill is a missed opportunity. As my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Bedfordshire said, it is welcome as far as it goes, but simply does not go far enough. That stores up real problems for the future. Every month, all over the country, serious decisions are being taken on waste, particularly with regard to incineration. Those decisions cannot be lightly reversed in the future. Often, they result in council tax payers or the local community that is responsible for feeding the incinerators being saddled with long-term contracts of up to 20 years.

I am disappointed that the Government, who, especially in their early years, did a significant amount for the environment, should throw away this opportunity because they have lost their interest in, or appetite for, the wider environmental agenda. Having made progress early on, they are willing to rest on their laurels.

That has been borne out by my experience on the Environmental Audit Committee. We have a Secretary of State who, when she last appeared before us to discuss this subject, seemed at best complacent and at worst unwilling to address the issue. The one bright spot on the horizon is that since the Committee sat the Government have reconsidered, and have accepted a private Member's Bill piloted through the House by the hon. Member for Lewisham, Deptford (Joan Ruddock). It is not to the Government's credit that they fought that Bill to the end, and that only all-party pressure—including pressure from Labour Back Benchers—forced them to accept it, albeit in a much watered-down form. Unfortunately, that Bill plugs just one of the holes that are apparent in the Bill that we are discussing.

This Bill singularly lacks ambition, and a holistic approach to an issue that really does require big thinking. It is ironic that so few of us are in the Chamber tonight, given that waste is an issue guaranteed to fill a village hall or community centre anywhere in the country. Go to a constituency, threaten to put an incinerator there, offer to install a landfill site in an inappropriate place, and you will see the public thronging in. The issue is not obscure, or unrelated to people's everyday lives. In my constituency we are fighting tooth and nail against an incinerator and against an inappropriate landfill site, in order to improve recycling and the waste hierarchy.

I am pleased that the Minister, in his new role, has grasped the importance of the waste priority. I was encouraged by his reference to the need to minimise and to re-use. That, however, is empty rhetoric if it is not matched in the Bill. not just by a strategy, but by a strategy that is properly resourced and backed up—a strategy with real teeth. What we see in the Bill is no more than a wish list. The Bill has no guts: it is not equipped to ensure that we make the improvements that are so desperately needed. England currently recycles 13.5 per cent. of its household waste, which is one of the lowest rates in Europe. The United States recycles 31 per cent., while just across the channel Germany and Austria recycle 48 per cent. The Government have set targets requiring our rate to rise to 25 per cent. by 2005 and 30 per cent. by 2010—and, rather unambitiously, to 33 per cent. by 2015.

Mr. John Gummer (Suffolk, Coastal)

Would those targets not be much easier to meet if the Government expressed the targets for local authorities in the same percentage terms, rather than in terms of weight? Authorities often go for the heaviest product, rather than that which is most valuably recycled.

Gregory Barker

My right hon. Friend is spot on. I would expect nothing less from him. Volume is also an important consideration. My hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Bedfordshire mentioned in Committee that something that is light in weight may have a large volume in landfill terms. I am sorry that the Government have not taken up his pertinent points.

Norman Baker

When asked about the weight-and-volume issue in Committee, the Minister's predecessor, the right hon. Member for Oldham, West and Royton (Mr. Meacher), said: I am pleased to say, without commitment, that we will seriously consider the hon. Gentleman's idea. I will write to him when the Department has had a serious look at the proposal."—[Official Report, Standing Committee B, 3 April 2003; c. 18.] Would it not be helpful if the Minister could tell us what consideration the Government have given to the idea?

Gregory Barker

It would indeed. I am looking at the Minister now to see whether he will adhere to that commitment.

Mr. Gummer

Is not it amazing that a Minister should consider it a bright new idea when it has been pressed on the Government for their entire period in office? It is simply a sensible idea that any sane person would implement.

Gregory Barker

That assumes that the Government are heavy on common sense, but they are not.

The Government have set targets that are not especially ambitious. It is therefore troubling that it appears that those relatively unambitious targets will not be met. The Environmental Audit Committee stated in its most recent report that the UK "will not come close" to meeting any national targets for recycling. In its view, the targets for 2010 and 2015 will be missed by a "wide margin". Since that report was published, my colleagues on that Committee have seen little to change our minds. The Minister's fine words in the debate, encouraging though they are, are not matched by anything that could be described as a credible strategy backed with resources.

My greatest anxiety about the Bill is that it pushes waste from landfill to incineration. The Minister said that he does not believe that he is promoting incineration, but such an even-handed policy is not enough. Market intervention is needed to promote recycling and level the playing field because the renewables obligation and other tax breaks make incineration a more attractive commercial option than recycling. Unless we tackle that with market mechanisms to jump-start the recycling industry, we shall simply pour more rubbish into incinerators. The Minister may be equivocal about that, but I believe that it is a bad thing. There is no greater disincentive for local communities than knowing that they are doing their bit to recycle, compost and minimise while their local authorities are signing long-term contracts for huge new burners. The number of planning applications for new burners is disturbing.

It is not good enough for the Minister to say that he is open minded about fiscal incentives to redress the economic imbalance in the waste hierarchy. He needs to hold urgent talks with his Treasury colleagues and present a genuinely environmental solution that is not simply a back-door stealth tax to raise money for the Exchequer. As my hon. Friend the Member for Leominster (Mr. Wiggin) said, any further revenue that is raised must go back to the environmental economy.

We urgently need the Minister to confer with his colleagues, because the Bill is not a response to a blank sheet of paper. Communities are already saddled with contracts and more are being prepared as we speak. That requires urgent action. If we are to make the progress that the public ask of us, we must deal with the whole subject and not simply cherry-pick the easy bits and leave the more difficult options for another day.

Today, we can support only the Bill, not items that it does not contain. It constitutes a wasted opportunity that speaks of a Government who have run out of ambition and ideas. We know that Governments who run out of those qualities are ultimately overtaken by events.

6.48 pm
Mr. Morley

With the leave of the House, I shall make a few comments.

A few events have overtaken the House tonight. The competition outside the Chamber might explain why attendance has been a little thin. [Interruption.] I must admit that that applies to all parties—we are competing with other entertainment.

The entertainment does not detract from the fact that a range of sensible points has been made in the debate, and I do not accept that the Bill constitutes a wasted opportunity. It is important that the issues have been addressed in this way.

I would like to reply specifically to some of the points that have been raised by the hon. Member for Mid-Bedfordshire (Mr. Sayeed), but first I shall deal with the concerns about incineration raised by the hon. Member for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker). I quite understand that if there is an application for an incinerator and a landfill site in his constituency, his constituents are bound to be concerned. As we have already discussed, incineration and landfill are not exactly popular measures. They are the kind of provisions that everyone understands we must have, but that everyone wants in some other place. The hon. Gentleman is right to say that the way to reduce this problem is to concentrate on the waste hierarchy, on minimisation and on re-use and recycling. He is wrong, however, to say that there are no financial instruments in place to encourage that. The way in which we have reallocated landfill tax credits through the waste minimisation fund is among a range of measures that have brought about changes in relation to the minimisation of waste. We hope to see further progress in that direction.

Mr. Gummer

Could not the Minister have done much more had the Chancellor not made sure that increases in the landfill tax did not count towards the Minister's environmental aims? Will he have a word with the Chancellor about stealing this money from the environment to pay for other things?

Mr. Morley

There is clearly an argument about the rate of increase being applied to the landfill tax. I happen to think that the rate of increase is an important issue, and that £35 a tonne is about the right level. I would like to see us get there as quickly as possible. The right hon. Gentleman will understand better than most people in the House, however, that the Treasury will want to weigh up the effects on industry of those fiscal measures. Nevertheless, I have every sympathy with his general point.

The hon. Member for Mid-Bedfordshire asked about fines. Subject to developing an acceptable system for applying this, the Government will recycle back to local authorities any civil penalties that are incurred as a result of a failure to meet the targets set in the Bill. There will, therefore, be a recycling of money. I hope that answers the hon. Gentleman's question.

Mr. Sayeed

May I just thank the Minister for that?

Mr. Morley

I hope that that counts as a third cheer to add to the two that the hon. Gentleman has already very generously given us.

The hon. Member for Lewes (Norman Baker) made a constructive speech, and I take the points that he made. We need to take a holistic approach to all these issues. I understand his point about printer cartridges, an issue that has come up a few times. One of the problems involved in applying the WEEE directive to printer cartridges is that they are not classified as electrical equipment. There might, however, be other ways of dealing with the issue in terms of European directives. Discussions are under way, and I am not unsympathetic to his point. If we can make some progress on this, I would be only too happy to do so.

I was a bit disappointed by the contribution from the hon. Member for Leominster (Mr. Wiggin), who has been a diligent member of the Committee and Opposition spokesperson, along with the hon. Member for Lewes. He has generally been constructive and approached the issues in a useful way. I have to say that I think that the hon. Member for Lewes was a little evasive on the incineration issue, but we will not go too far down that road now, as we are in constructive mode at the moment.

I say sincerely to hon. Members who talk about wrapping everything up into one Bill that I genuinely understand the logic in what they are saying, but there are serious practical issues that I would ask them to consider. Much as I enjoyed my discussions with Opposition Members in Committee, their proposal to wrap up in one Bill the various packaging directives, the landfill measures that we are dealing with here, and all the other work streams that I have emphasised are in progress would produce a Bill that would put the "Encyclopaedia Britannica" in the shade and would lock us up in Committee together for the next two years. Much as I enjoyed our discussion, there is a limit, and there is also the practical issue of how to scrutinise particular issues. We have approached the various directives in different ways at different times, so that they gain the proper scrutiny that they deserve.

Norman Baker

Let me try once more, just five minutes before Third Reading finishes. The point is that the implementation of the landfill directive will move somewhere else more than half of the waste currently in landfill sites. The criticism is that the Government have not planned where it is going. That is the main issue: where is that waste going? The Government should incentivise the waste hierarchy to ensure that it goes to the right place, but they have not done so.

Mr. Morley

The waste hierarchy is incentivised to a certain extent. We can argue about the level of those incentives and whether we need further ones. I am not averse to that. I have acknowledged that our approach is dynamic. We do not expect the measures that we are taking now to stand still. We expect them, including the targets for waste and recycling, to be reviewed. We shall examine them again in due course.

We have not disagreed about where incineration is in the waste hierarchy. The Government are not advocating incineration or any particular approach, apart from stressing the importance of minimisation and recycling in the hierarchy, which is where we are putting resources. All I am saying is that we sometimes have to opt for the best environmental solution on environmental grounds, but the best environmental solution may not always be the most popular one. That is an issue for organisations such as Friends of the Earth to take into account if they are serious about environmental issues, minimising the impact on the environment and finding the best solution. As I say, it may not always be the most popular, but people should argue for what they believe is the right solution in the circumstances. The hon. Member for Mid-Bedfordshire made a similar good point about how particular issues should be judged.

I think that we have had a useful and good debate. Obviously, the Government cannot accept all the amendments, but we have made a big effort to deal with the points that hon. Members have raised. I have already said that not all of them are appropriately dealt with by this particular Bill, but they remain important issues. We are addressing them through such means as the packaging directive, implementation of various EU directives, recycling landfill credits and the waste and resources action programme. We are investing millions of pounds of support through the challenge fund for local authorities. We have made a significant increase of more than £1 billion, I believe, for the application of that fund. All those important measures demonstrate that the Government take environmental issues seriously.

We have freely acknowledged that waste and recycling in this country starts from a very low base—we have no argument about that—but I genuinely believe that we have made more progress in the last few years than in the previous decade. We have seen heightened awareness from all parties and all sides in the debate of how to apply environmental measures.

I repeat my thanks to hon. Members for their constructive contributions. The Bill will make a difference. I do not believe for a moment that it represents the only measure that we can put in place. I have demonstrated to the House the various other work streams that are in progress. We will have a continuing debate and I do not disagree with many of the points that have been made during the debate.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed, with amendments.

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