§ Mr. HeathI beg to move amendment No. 4, in page 5, line 13, at end insert—
'() No local justice area may include areas which form part of more than one area specified under section 4.'.
§ Madam Deputy Speaker (Sylvia Heal)With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments:
432 No. 5, in page 5, line 13, at end insert—
'() No local justice area may include areas which form part of more than one area established under Schedule 11 to the Police Act 1996 (c. 16).'.No. 52, in page 5, line 14, at end insert
'but only with the prior consent of the lay justices for that area and in any event not in a way which removes the coterminosity of a local justice area with a police authority area'.
§ Mr. HeathThis group of amendments deals not with courts boards but with local justice areas, which will be more familiar to most Members as the petty sessions areas that they effectively replace under the Bill. Amendments Nos. 4 and 5 are simple. They propose that a local justice area should not straddle the borders of courts boards areas or of police authorities under the Police Act 1996. However, I cannot believe that it is anyone's intention to make them do so, and it could be argued that if one requirement is satisfied, so is the other, by virtue of what we have already said about coterminosity.
It cannot be in the interests of good administration if the local justice area—which is, as the smallest unit, the building block of the revised structure of the justice system—were to come under the jurisdiction of more than one courts board area. Conflicting advice could be given to the Secretary of State or Lord Chancellor on the interests of a specific local justice area. Magistrates might not know to which courts board they should address any views on the administration of courts in their bench areas. In short, we would have completely unnecessary confusion.
When we discussed the matter in Committee, the Minister covered his tracks by saying that the courts boards deal with more than just the magistrates courts in their area, and that is true. However, if we are agreed that the local justice areas are, as the Minister put it, the essential building blocks on which the whole structure is based, they should not teeter between two different areas. Even though the courts board has an interest in the family courts, the civil courts and the youth court structure, it does not alter the fact that a single local justice area should fall within a single courts board area; otherwise, unnecessary and easily avoidable confusion would arise.
Amendment No. 5 makes the same argument in terms of police authorities. Such authorities can be very large, and the whole thrust of Government policy, for some years, has been to achieve a degree of coterminosity between police authority areas and all the other agencies that are relevant to the work of the police. Indeed, that argument was made strongly in the debate that we have just had. It was argued that the courts boards should be—wherever possible and with the exception of London—identical to the police authority areas. If that is the case, where is the logic in having a local justice area, dealing with one or more magistrates courts, which straddles police authority areas? It flies in the face of what we are led to believe is the Government's policy, which cannot be what they intend.
The only argument for not clearly stating that in statute, thereby making it the basis of the structure, would be that there was a need for transitional 433 arrangements when petty sessions areas straddled police authority areas and needed special treatment. I have two arguments against that suggestion: first, it would not be impossible to devise transitional arrangements and, secondly and more cogently, it should not happen. If we are to set up a new, unified court structure whose building blocks are to be the local justice areas, those areas should be so constructed as not to go from one police authority area to another, from one probation service area to another or from one CPS area to another—all the arguments prayed in aid in our earlier debate for not having more than one courts board in a police authority area.
When I put all those points together it is difficult to find a reasonable argument against our amendments. My only suggestion for the Minister would be that they do not apply because as the justice areas are already encompassed within the measure, no adjustment will be necessary, and that it is not necessary to include the proposals in the statutes because some future Secretary of State might choose, willy-nilly, to create new justice areas that straddle police authority or courts board boundaries. I do not think that is a sensible argument, however, and I hope that the Minister will not make it.
If we are to set up a unified courts structure, with an integrated system, it should be based on common building blocks making up several local justice areas, courts areas and police authority areas so that there is an organised and regimented structure for the whole country. Both the Minister and I want to see that pyramid. My amendments would make that happen; in their absence, it may not happen.
§ Mr. HawkinsOnce again, as we did on this issue in Committee, the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) and I are arguing from a similar perspective. The Opposition take the view that the Bill would give the Lord Chancellor too wide and unfettered a discretion. Currently, clause 8(4) states baldly:
The Lord Chancellor may make orders altering local justice areas.There are no restrictions and, under subsection (5), the powers are widened further.The Opposition want to set up some control on what the Lord Chancellor is or is not allowed to do, but in a slightly different way to that proposed by the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome. We want to include the rather ugly word "coterminosity" that was used in Committee. Under our amendment No. 52, the Lord Chancellor would not be able to alter the local justice area
in a way which removes the coterminosity of a local justice area with a police authority area".We want to achieve the same kind of restrictions as those proposed in the Liberal Democrat amendments, but we want a specific requirement that the lay justices be involved in any decision to change. We think that if the Bill required that the lay justices were consulted they would try to ensure that logic and coterminosity remained. No future Lord Chancellor should be able to change things without the prior consent of the lay justices for that area.We are pressing the Government in the same way as the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome and I did in Committee. The Bill should include restrictions. The 434 Lord Chancellor should not have unfettered discretion to do things that would be illogical and could be damaging, as the hon. Gentleman pointed out. That is the basis for our amendment and I very much endorse his views on the importance of the building blocks. We shall, of course, listen to what the Minister has to say, but I was not persuaded by the Government in Committee and I am not persuaded now. The Bill would be much better if it included the safeguards either of the Liberal Democrat amendments or, more specifically, of our amendment No. 52.
§ Mr. LeslieAs we have just heard, the effect of amendment No. 4 would be to ensure that no local justice area may include areas that form part of more than one courts board. Amendment No. 5 would ensure that no local justice area may include areas that form part of more than one police authority area. The second part of amendment No. 52 largely covers the same issue. As I said earlier, the Government have made a commitment that courts board areas will be coterminous with criminal justice areas—police authority areas—so I shall deal with all the amendments together.
The amendments are unnecessary and undesirable. The hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) tried to pre-empt my justification for resisting his amendments and made very good arguments against them, which I hope to supplement in some small way. In fact, the amendments try to put the cart before the horse, which is the fundamental point of my argument. Currently, the first building block is the petty sessions area, which is more or less what we envisage as the local justice area, and it is the fundamental aspect of the magistrates courts system, whereas courts board areas are an administrative structure whereby the administration of the courts, and not only magistrates courts, is enhanced.
Clearly, in determining a courts board area, consideration should be given to ensuring that petty sessions area and local justice area boundaries are not compromised. That is common sense. However, I am not convinced that we need to erect the concrete walls that the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome suggests. In fact, subsection (6) of clause 8 already provides for consultation with the relevant courts board if boundary changes are under consideration. The powers are not entirely unfettered, but we need to realise that if the local justice area—the petty sessions area—is to be the main building block we need to ensure that there is some provision for latitude without the need for an Act of Parliament.
Amendment No. 5 would require that no local justice area would straddle more than one police authority area—sometimes known nowadays as a criminal justice system area—apart from the City-Metropolitan boundary in London. That is the current position with petty sessions area boundaries and it will also, initially, be the case for local justice area boundaries.
The second part of amendment No. 52 again refers to coterminosity with police areas. I am sorry that the hon. Member for Surrey Heath (Mr. Hawkins) does not like the word "coterminosity", as it neatly describes what we are talking about. We expect a local justice area to have boundaries that will in future remain within those of a criminal justice system area but we would not want to 435 fetter our future discretion by making that a requirement of the Bill. It is important to remember that magistrates courts hear civil and family cases as well as criminal cases, so the organisation of a local justice area should not relate solely to the needs of the police and the CPS. We must allow some latitude to recognise those aspects that could affect the shape of a local justice area, but I do not envisage that this will be a significant issue in the initial establishment that we currently plan.
7.30 pm
Amendment No. 52 is slightly different, as the Opposition seek, in effect, to require the consent of only magistrates for any reorganisation of a local justice area. That would be both unworkable and unfair, especially to local authorities and local courts boards, to which equal consideration should perhaps be given on proposed reorganisations. In fact, that amendment would give a magistrate the power to exercise a veto on the proposed shape of local justice areas, and it might even allow for such reorganisation to be prevented by a single opposing magistrate, despite any view that may have been provided by either the local authority or the local courts board. Clearly, that would be undesirable.
Nevertheless, it is, of course, entirely right that local magistrates should be involved in such decisions, which is why we have provided in clause 8(6)(a) for consultation with justices of the peace, as well as the local authorities and local courts boards, before any reorganisation. Amendment No. 52 is quite unacceptable. It cannot be right to give magistrates the power of veto over proposed reorganisations when the local courts board, which is a more representative body, might be consulted only in passing.
I hope that those amendments are now seen in that light—they are unnecessary and undesirable—and I invite the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome to withdraw the amendment.
§ Mr. HeathWhile listening to the hon. Gentleman, I was trying to remember the laws of thermodynamics, although not as digression from what he was saying. Is it the third law of thermodynamics that states that entropy increases in any system? It seems a bizarre legislative stroke of genius to legislate right from the start of proceedings for an increase in entropy in the system that is to be set up. That seemed to be the tenor of what the hon. Gentleman said. He said that he had a nice, neat system, but someone at some stage in the future might want to make it very untidy, by creating local justice areas that cross police authority areas or criminal justice areas, as the hon. Gentleman called them. I do not know anyone who calls them criminal justice areas, but I am sure that there is a Government consultative paper somewhere that refers to them as such.
The Minister thinks that a future Secretary of State may want to create local justice areas where they do not exist at the moment, so he believes that he ought to include that possibility in the Bill, or allow for that possible eventuality by leaving arrangements open, because it would be nice to have a bit of untidiness if someone wanted it at some future stage. Well, that is a strange way to create a system.
I listened hard to the hon. Gentleman's argument on amendment No. 4, as well. He reiterated a point that he made in Committee, where I was happy to accept it, that 436 the building blocks—we have all learned to call them that—of the new system are the local justice areas, but he then said that including my amendment, which seeks to ensure that they do not cross boundaries, would somehow give primacy to the courts board, rather than the local justice area. Well, of course, it would not.
If there were a sensible way to frame an amendment saying that courts areas must consist of an integer of local justice areas, I suppose that we could have done such things that way—it would come to exactly the same thing—and that would have presumably passed the Minister's test about which comes first, the chicken or the egg. However, that would not make a jot of difference to the outcome, which is to try to ensure that we have an orderly system that builds on those blocks, so that, if the boundaries of a local justice area spilled over in future, there would be the corollary amendment to the courts board area to maintain the integrity and sensible nature of the system, without, as the hon. Gentleman put it, compromising the effectiveness of the arrangements.
Why should I bother? Those arrangements will be dealt with administratively; they do not have to be stated in the Bill. I simply think that, with a Bill that is essentially intended to unify the courts system, it is preferable to say what we mean, rather than not to say what we mean, and to start from a basis of hard structures, rather than fuzzy structures, which is what the Minister apparently prefers when dealing with an eventuality that he cannot identify.
If we were in Committee, I should be very tempted to press the amendment to a Division. Given that we are now debating the Bill on Report, that I have done my best to persuade the Minister of the correctness of my point of view and that he has failed dismally to respond to what I have said, there would be very little point in pressing the amendment to a Division. So, with some regret and some sadness at the lack of precision that the Minister has evidenced in his response to this group of amendments, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.