HC Deb 10 November 2003 vol 413 cc15-7
21. Mr. Huw Edwards (Monmouth)

If he will make a statement about measures to improve the level of clergy pensions. [137043]

25. Mr. Gordon Prentice (Pendle)

What steps are being taken to increase the pensions of the clergy. [137047]

Second Church Estates Commissioner (Mr. Stuart Bell)

Following wide consultation on remuneration levels for serving and retired clergy, the Church believes the level of the clergy pension, which includes a lump sum on retirement, is reasonable in relation to the clergy stipend. At a time when many employers are switching to money purchase pension schemes—in effect switching risk on to the employee—the Church stands by its commitment to a defined benefit scheme.

Mr. Edwards

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that answer. Does he agree that although the pension for those clergy who achieve maximum service is reasonable, there are concerns about those who do not achieve it either because they have come into the vocation later in life or they are female ordained clergy? Will he consider the circumstances of such people, in particular whether they can transfer their previous pension entitlement into the Church Commissioners' fund?

Mr. Bell

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that. He will know that pensions increased on 1 April 2003 and a further 3 per cent. increase is planned for April next year. The full service pension will rise to £11,343 per annum and the full-service lump sum to £34,030. In relation to those who joined the clergy at a later date, I confirm that they can transfer their pensions. On the wider point as to whether we should consider the circumstances as they affect their interests, I am happy to give him that assurance.

Mr. Prentice

You will know, Mr. Speaker, that three years ago responsibility for financing the clergy pensions transferred to parishes. I have been reading the ecclesiastical press and it seems that some well intentioned people believe that wealthy parishes are salting away their surpluses. I want to know where those wealthy parishes are, because it is not a Church-like thing to do. The money should be redistributed as between the wealthy parishes and those that are less well off.

Mr. Bell

That was a question for you, Mr. Speaker, rather than for me, but I am happy to answer it.

It is a fact that pensions that have fallen due since 1998 fall on the parishes. Before that date, they stay with the Church Commissioners. Parishes are obliged to meet their commitments. I am not aware of any parish that does that in an unchristian, unfriendly manner.

Sir Sydney Chapman (Chipping Barnet)

Would the Second Church Estates Commissioner agree that the Church Commissioners' ability to help clergy with their stipends and pensions is entirely dependent on returns from their assets, whether in property, equities or whatever? Is it not true that a commendable proportion of the Church Commissioners' assets or income goes to clergy stipends and pensions?

Mr. Bell

I am grateful, as ever, to the hon. Gentleman for his contribution. He is entirely right that a substantial part of our income goes towards meeting those pensions. Over the past few years, the Chancellor of the Exchequer has taken £20 million from our income, which will change to about £12 million in 2004. That impacts on finances that go towards pensions for clergy and, of course, their wives and dependants.

Mr. John Bercow (Buckingham)

Given that the hon. Gentleman's defence of clergy pensions was subject to the rather critical caveat that those pensions reflected the stipend, can I seek to tempt him to say whether he agrees that clergymen are grossly undervalued in the course of their working lives, so the size of the pensions accorded to them ought to be significantly uprated? In that context, can he advance any moral argument as to why he, I and other right hon. and hon. Members should receive a larger pension than the dedicated moral clergymen of our country?

Mr. Bell

I am only too happy to answer the hon. Gentleman. The two points, if I may put my lawyer's hat on, are mutually exclusive, and one does not relate to the other. However, the hon. Gentleman is certainly right in his belief that the clergy are undervalued in our parishes. They provide an enormous contact between Church and state, which is valued by everyone. As for the basis for determining the benefits provided by the Church, which consist of a lump sum on retirement plus a pension, we try to take into account all the factors in the interests of the clergy.