HC Deb 24 March 2003 vol 402 cc7-11
4. Tony Cunningham (Workington)

How many (a) civilian police support staff and (b) police officers are in post. [104110]

7. Angela Watkinson (Upminster)

If he will make a statement on police numbers in London. [104113]

The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. David Blunkett)

I am confident that the target that we have set of 130,000 police officers by the end of this month will be substantially exceeded. We will publish figures shortly on the situation up to September last year. To March last year, we had record numbers of 129,600 police officers and 58,900 civilian support staff. In London, there were 27,000 officers and 10,700 civilian staff.

Tony Cunningham

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. That is certainly reflected in my experience in west Cumbria, where the police tell me that they have never known numbers as high as they are at present. In terms of trying to increase numbers of special constables, may I say that we have been waiting some time for the final approval of a pilot scheme in Workington to pay police specials? Will he take this opportunity to give the go-ahead for what I know will be a very successful scheme?

Mr. Blunkett

We have received an application for a pilot programme from the Cumbria police for 10 specials working eight hours or more to be paid a trial sum of £1,000, in addition to meeting tax and other liabilities. I am pleased to say that we have approved that for one year from 1 April. We will want to monitor that project and see how we can expand it across the country.

Angela Watkinson

The allocation of police officers to the London borough of Havering has stayed static, at 334, for some considerable time. Given the huge concentration of late-night entertainment places in the adjacent constituency of Romford, which makes huge demands on the Havering police, and the two fast roads going through the borough—the A12 and the Al27—would the Secretary of State undertake a reassessment of Havering's police needs?

Mr. Blunkett

I can certainly ask the Metropolitan Police Commissioner to look at that, including the way in which the use of community support officers, perhaps in conjunction with police allocated to Romford, would release full-time trained police time to deal with the antisocial behaviour and other difficulties that the hon. Lady has raised with the Met police and the commander in her area. I am sure that the commissioner will be sensitive to that.

Dr. Phyllis Starkey (Milton Keynes, South-West)

Although increases in the number of police are obviously welcome, is it not also important that all police forces continually reassess the way in which qualified police officers are being used and look for opportunities to use civilians to undertake duties that they can undertake? In that context, is my right hon. Friend aware that in Milton Keynes we have effectively had an extra 30 police officers this year because of extra money from the Government to fill backroom posts, which has released police officers to do the job for which they are qualified? Is he reviewing the situation to see whether there are more opportunities like that?

Mr. Blunkett

I am pleased that there have been additions of that sort, together with the back-up for the police family, so that civilianisation and expansion of police numbers go hand in hand. I also draw attention to the fact that along with the crime fighting fund, some local authorities are now willing to join with the police in providing street and neighbourhood wardens and to contribute towards the police service directly, including buying in community support officers. I hope that we will see a great deal more of that in future.

Simon Hughes (Southwark, North and Bermondsey)

First, I associate the Liberal Democrats with the warm tributes and thanks to the right hon. Member for Southampton. Itchen (Mr. Denham) and the hon. Member for Woking (Mr. Malins) for their work in their parties and their honourable resignations from the Front Bench.

The Home Secretary will know that we welcome the increase in police numbers, but he has said that police numbers are not everything—what counts is whether each community feels that the police in their area are visible, responsive, effective and accountable. I wonder whether he accepts that if we are to reduce crime and the fear of crime even more, the decision about how to deploy numbers force by force must be left to the chief constable in each local police authority. Would he be willing, on a cross-party basis, to agree with police authorities and chief constables to produce an independent report providing advice and guidance about how many police we need in each area, so that communities around Britain can have the number of police that they are calling for to bring down crime?

Mr. Blunkett

That is an interesting idea, which I am quite happy to discuss with the Association of Chief Police Officers. However, the new national centre for policing excellence and the way in which chief constables are now sharing information, including that collected by the inspectorate and used by the police standards unit, are assisting with the formula used for the distribution of police within police authority areas. Police authorities themselves will want to look at that, because decentralisation and devolvement must involve greater responsibility, not through one individual—the chief constable—but a collective responsibility through the police authority itself and by consultation with local community groups. I think that we would all like a great deal more of that.

Jim Dobbin (Heywood and Middleton)

It is my understanding that up to 57 additional officers are about to be appointed to the Rochdale division, which serves my constituency of Heywood and Middleton. Can the Home Secretary assure me that those police officers will be used on the streets, where they are most needed?

Mr. Blunkett

Every endeavour will be made to do so. Chief constables, including the Metropolitan Police Commissioner, who made an honest appraisal of what happened 10 years ago, have witnessed a sea change in attitudes, ensuring both that officers are in the community getting intelligence but also relating to the community. The work that we are doing on the back of the O'Dowd taskforce to slim down paperwork and bureaucracy, and the measures that must be introduced to make that effective, will be critical. My right hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr. Denham) was in fact responsible for initiating "The diary of a police officer", looking at 400 police officers and what they did. That, of course, revealed what we all know—far too many of them are never on the street. If they are, they spend too much time having to deal with those whom they arrest.

Mr. Oliver Letwin (West Dorset)

I begin by joining the House in noting with regret and personal admiration the departure of my hon. Friend the Member for Woking (Mr. Malins) and the right hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr. Denham). If I am honest, I have to say that I lament the first and celebrate the second—my hon. Friend was a huge support, and the right hon. Gentleman was a dangerously effective opponent.

What does the Home Secretary think is the required number of police officers in England and Wales to provide a proper police service?

Mr. Blunkett

On the right hon. Gentleman's first point, I lament both those Members going, for different reasons.

I believe that the requisite number of police officers is a minimum of 132,500 by spring 2004, and a substantial increase mirroring the sort of resources that we have been putting in year after year, but I do not believe that that will be achieved by demolishing completely the establishment of other parts of my Department.

Mr. Letwin

I do not know whether the Home Secretary thought that that was an answer, but as he knows, having reflected on the matter ourselves, we have provided a genuine answer. We believe that an extra 40,000 officers, taking us to about 170,000, are necessary. I imagine that in the course of the past couple of years, he has reflected on this matter. I am sure that there is a target in the Home Office—the one genuine target that would really be worth hitting—for the actual number of police officers required to police England and Wales. Will he tell us what that number is?

Mr. Blunkett

I gave the right hon. Gentleman an answer—a figure that was substantially above the falling number that we inherited in 1997, when a decision had not been taken by the then Conservative Government to abolish the whole nationality and immigration department and transfer those resources to paying for the police. I say to him that I do not believe for a moment that the Opposition have come up with a figure that they calculated as the totality required for England and Wales as a What they did, opportunistically, was see what the budget for immigration and nationality was at the moment and decide to switch it into police numbers. Of course, policing our boundaries and those who come here is just as important as policing our streets.

Mr. Letwin

I wonder whether the Home Secretary is aware—in fact, I say that rhetorically, because I am sure he is—that our numbers are based on a comparison of New York and London. Why does he think that London is capable o f being policed as effectively as New York with some 8,000 fewer police officers? Does he admit that there may be some connection between the fact that New York has reduced its crime rates by about 60 per cent. over a decade and the fact that it has a proper number of police officers? Does he not believe that that is what is required not only in London, but in the rest of England and Wales?

Mr. Blunkett

For a variety of reasons, I intend to be in New York very shortly, and I will talk to the present commissioner and mayor about the situation, not least including what they count in terms of the overall strength of the New York police. Of course, that would now include what we call community support officers and the British Transport police. I accept that substantial extra numbers are required in the capital—a view that we share with the Mayor of London. Between the Mayor of London, the Metropolitan Police Authority and the Home Office, I am determined to ensure that we get those numbers and sustain them, and recruit quality police officers, rather than simply making this issue a numbers game. People on the street with quality training and the right support are what all of us want to see.