NATIONAL ADVISORY COMMITTEES

HC Deb 04 March 2003 vol 400 cc750-61

(1) It shall be the duty of OFCOM to establish and maintain National Advisory Committees for England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

(2) The Chairman and membership of these committees shall be appointed by the Secretary of State.

(3) In making such appointments in respect of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, the Secretary of State shall seek nomination from the Scottish Parliament, the National Assembly for Wales and the Northern Ireland Assembly respectively.

(4) The National Advisory Committees may consider and advise on all aspect of OFCOM's work in respect of their individual territories.

(5) The National Advisory committees may issue such recommendations to OFCOM or the Secretary of State with respect to their territories as they see fit.

(6) The National Advisory Committees shall produce an annual report on their activities.'.—[Pete Wishart.]

Brought up, and read the First time.

Pete Wishart (North Tayside)

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

Madam Deputy Speaker

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment No. 206, in page 3, line 48 [Clause 3], at end insert Including through representations made by the devolved administrations of Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland'. Amendment No. 207, in page 4, line 24 [Clause 3], at end insert— '(6) In performing their duties under this section OFCOM shall have a duty to consult with the National Assembly for Wales, the Scottish Parliament and the Northern Ireland Assembly over matters of specific concern to Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.'.

Pete Wishart

We consider new clause 19 and amendments Nos. 206 and 207 to be modest and reasonable. They would ensure one thing—that the devolved institutions are fully engaged in the new environment that will be established once the Bill is enacted. We were disappointed that the devolved institutions were, in effect, locked out when the Bill was published. The new clause and the amendments seek to address that deficit, but they fall way short of our ideals and ambitions for broadcasting in Scotland—the full devolution of broadcasting powers to the Scottish Parliament, as initially envisaged in the Scotland Act 1998. Of course, we realise that we will not achieve that; what we want to achieve with the new clause and the amendments is that the distinct broadcasting and media environment in Scotland is addressed.

After all the consideration of this Bill—whether in discussions of the draft Bill, in pre-legislative scrutiny, or in the Standing Committee—this is our last opportunity to ensure that the devolved institutions have a voice in the new broadcasting regime. We were immensely disappointed that, when the Ofcom board was established, it contained no representatives from Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland. We could not secure a place at the top table. if broadcasting could not be devolved, we should have been given the second-best option: a place at the top table for all the nations of the United Kingdom.

The establishment of the new Ofcom board has resulted in a diminution in our influence in the broadcasting regime. Previously, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland had a place on the Independent Television Commission, just as we had a place on most of the regulatory bodies. We were confident of progress on this issue, because we had powerful and influential friends who supported us. First among them was Scotland's First Minister, Jack McConnell. He was rightly concerned that the "cultural and democratic dimension" of Scottish broadcasting be protected under the new regime. He was so concerned that he wrote twice to the Secretary of State for Scotland, but he did not even get a reply on either occasion. When he eventually received a reply, he was fobbed with the offer of places on the content board and the consumer panel, and with a vague pledge to establish Ofcom offices in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Like us, the First Minister agreed that Scottish listeners and viewers should be represented at the highest possible level to defend aspects that are peculiar to Scotland, such as devolved and regional television programmes, our national and regional news coverage as well as the Gaelic service and our dynamic media sector. He was convinced that they needed protecting, and rightly so. However, is it not a pity that his London-based colleagues could not be convinced? Is it not a pity that Scotland's champion in the Cabinet could not be convinced and was working not for the Scottish interests but against them? More than anything, that convinces us that the Scotland Office and the Secretary of State's post should be abolished and that the money secured should be put into front-line services in Scotland.

I read the transcript of the Committee proceedings, and I do not know whether it was better to be involved in the Committee or to read the report. However, I saw that six Labour Members were on the Committee and none of them supported the case for an enhanced role for Scotland in the new broadcasting environment. All of them supported a diminished role for Scotland.

Given that we shall experience a diminishment in our influence in the new regime, we tabled the new clause and amendments to try to get not the best solution for Scotland and not even the best solution for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland within the United Kingdom context; we seek a very poor third choice, which is simply that the devolved institutions have a role in the workings of Ofcom. Instead of being enabled to, Ofcom should be compelled to establish national advisory committees in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. We want better integration between Ofcom and the devolved institutions.

As a matter of good practice, Ofcom should consult the devolved bodies anyway, and I understand that David Currie has had communications with the devolved Assemblies. However, the Bill should make it clear that that should happen and Ofcom should receive direction on the type of consultation that it should have with the devolved Governments. Amendments Nos. 206 and 207 try to deal with that point.

Amendment No. 207 states: Ofcom shall have a duty to consult with the National Assembly for Wales, the Scottish Parliament and the Northern Ireland Assembly over matters of specific concern to Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. What on earth is wrong with that? It is not as though we are asking the Scottish Parliament to compel Ofcom to do anything in particular. We do not even say that Ofcom must agree with the Scottish Parliament. The amendment merely asks for Ofcom to consult the Scottish Parliament. I do not see the problem with such a demand.

New clause 19(1) states: It shall be the duty of OFCOM to establish and maintain National Advisory Committees for England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. The committees would assist Ofcom with its work in the devolved institutions. They would review its work and suggest ways forward in the nations of the United Kingdom. We also ask Ofcom to produce an annual report for consideration by the devolved Governments. The committees would be independent of Government and would be appointed by the relevant Secretary of State. That would introduce an element of citizenship—an issue that my hon. Friend the Member for Ceredigion (Mr. Thomas) constantly raises—in Ofcom's working, and that must be welcome.

Our proposals are sensible and reasonable. As I have said, Scotland has a distinctive broadcasting environment, so it is sensible to have a distinct body that could communicate and advise about the distinct issues that will arise within the nations of the United Kingdom. The new clause and amendments simply seek to establish that Ofcom would operate under the Bill in ways that would replicate or extend the pattern of representation that we had in the past.

Mr. Simon Thomas

My hon. Friend has support from an unexpected quarter. I have with me the Welsh Assembly Government's current position on the Bill that was dated January 2003. The Welsh Assembly Government are, of course, a Labour-Liberal Democrat Assembly Government, but the document states: Along with the Scottish and Northern Ireland Executives, the Assembly Government asked for a designated member for Wales on Ofcom's central board. This was rejected. The lack of a designated member for Wales effectively reduces Wales's voice at the UK level and denies Wales an all-important part in the strategic leadership role of the board. Surely, if an Assembly Government asks for something from a Government in Westminster with the same political complexion, we should expect some leeway and an agreement to be hammered out. Why has that not happened?

Pete Wishart

I wish that I could answer my hon. Friend's question. Perhaps the Welsh Assembly Government were desperate to fall in line with what was requested from Scotland, which was almost identical. I understand that a similar request was made from Northern Ireland. What I do not understand—I share my hon. Friend's exasperation—is why it was rejected here. Why did Labour members of the Committee object? That baffles me entirely.

5 pm

Mr. Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute)

I draw the attention of the hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friend to the fact that the Governments in Scotland and Wales are of a different political complexion from the Government here. There are Liberal Democrat Members in those Governments, which is why they are better.

Pete Wishart

I wish that I could concur with the hon. Gentleman, but he will excuse me if I do not endorse that view.

All we are asking is to be given the level of representation that we have under the existing regime. These modest amendments attempt to address the rebalancing between the nations of the United Kingdom and the establishment of the Ofcom board. It is neither the best solution nor the second best—it is a poor third solution, but at least it would do something to ensure that the nations of the United Kingdom have a voice in the new communications regime.

John Robertson

I had intended not to take part in this debate, but merely to make interventions, but the hon. Member for North Tayside (Pete Wishart) threw out a line and I bit.[Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman is not being very friendly given that I am about to support much of what he said. The fact that there were so many Scottish Labour Members on the Committee meant that Scotland was well represented. The hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr. Thomas) will testify to the fact that we spoke together on many clauses. My hon. Friend the Member for Western Isles (Mr. MacDonald) and the hon. Member for Ceredigion spoke about Gaelic and Welsh language matters. It is therefore somewhat disingenuous to say that we did not do our bit for Scotland or, for that matter, Wales or Northern Ireland—I spoke about Northern Ireland myself.

Mr. Andrew Robathan (Blaby)

It was a pleasure to have the hon. Gentleman on the Committee, but it would be fair to say that altogether the six Scottish Members probably spoke for about one hundredth of the time. As the Committee had only 26 members, they should have spoken for 25 or 20 per cent. of the time.

John Robertson

After an intervention like that, it is probably not surprising that we did not speak for longer, unlike Conservative Front Benchers, who overdid it by repeatedly labouring the point on many occasions.

I accept the basic argument that it is important that the regions, not only Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales, are represented as nations. In Committee, we had the argument about regions and nations. It is important to have such recognition. Opposition Members may remember, however, that we also argued in Committee about the size of Ofcom. Ofcom is a completely different kind of body from previous bodies such as Oftel. If it represented everything in terms of regions and nations, as well as every single aspect of communications in the tier 1 hierarchy, its size would be unworkable, to say the least.

The hon. Member for North Tayside is right that David Currie said that he would look favourably upon Scotland and the other two nations when he considered the makeup of committees for the regions, and he has stated that he will consult the Scottish Executive on that matter. That answers some of the hon. Gentleman's questions. He will not get everything that he wants, but the Ofcom chairman is making the right noises. It is not fair to say that there is a diminished role for Scotland within Ofcom, given that five bodies have been incorporated into the one. I should like a Scot and someone from each region to serve on the board, but that cannot happen. It is not right to claim that because Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland are not represented, the system is unfair. We account for only one ninth of the population, so if there are fewer than nine people on the board, someone has to suffer.

Mr. Simon Thomas

I hear what the hon. Gentleman says. However, in the Standing Committee on the Office of Communications Act 2002, which established Ofcom, I tabled an amendment to increase Ofcom's membership from nine to a figure to be determined by the Secretary of State. What does the hon. Gentleman have to say about the relationship between the devolved Administrations in Scotland and Wales and Whitehall? It is a much-vaunted relationship and we are told that a Labour Executive in both places leads to a better working relationship. So when those Executives say not once, not twice, but three times that they want such changes to be included in the framework of this Bill, does he not think that we, as UK MPs who legislate for the UK as a whole, should listen to them?

John Robertson

As I said, not everyone can be included on the Ofcom board. It is for Ofcom to decide whether to appoint a Scot, a Welshman or an Irishman. The board would have to be bigger if the devolved Parliaments were to be represented. We had a long discussion about Ofcom's size in Committee. It was originally going to have only three members. We cannot continue to increase it because it will become cumbersome and will not work. We want less regulation, not more. A bigger board would mean more people to put forward ideas and a greater number of arguments. That would stop it reaching a reasonable decision. A regional board could deal with local decisions. David Currie was happy to have that arrangement. In fact, he insisted that it was important and it is being considered.

Scotland has diverse communication and entertainment needs. It is important that we are represented at a certain level, but if a Scot, a Welshman and an Irishman serve on Ofcom, eight ninths of the country would be represented by only two people who could also be Scottish, Welsh or Irish. It is not the nationality that counts; what matters is that Ofcom works and the interests of Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and all the regions of England are well looked after. That is the most important thing.

Mr. Alan Reid

I support new clause 19 and amendments Nos. 206 and 207. It is correct that Ofcom is a UK-wide regulatory body, because it is self-evident that broadcasting and communication affects the whole of the UK. However, some aspects of broadcasting affect Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland differently from England, so it is also correct that the system of advisory bodies, consultation and representation proposed in the amendments should be included in the Bill. For example, the political and news coverage in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland is different because of the presence of the devolved Parliaments and Administrations in those countries. In addition, Scotland will have the Gaelic media service and Wales will have various Welsh language services. We need to take care of those different concerns in Scotland and Wales.

Rural issues affect Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland much more than they affect England. I accept that the difficulty of accessing broadband is also a problem for rural areas of England, but the low population density in Scotland means that the problem is more prominent there. The sparsity of population in the highlands makes it difficult to persuade BT to enable exchanges for broadband. The threat of the analogue switch-off affects far more people in the highlands of Scotland than elsewhere, as many villages in highland glens surrounded by high mountains rely on self-help relay schemes to receive television signals.

Because of those issues and similar ones, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have different needs, and I hope that the Government accept the amendments. I do not see how they can possibly oppose the system of advisory bodies, representations and consultations that they propose. Surely, that is good Government practice, so I hope that the Government will accept them.

Mr. Timms

In Committee, a similar amendment to new clause 19 was eloquently moved by the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr. Thomas) and debated, but he could not persuade us of its merits. My hon. Friend the Minister for Tourism, Film and Broadcasting pointed out to hon. Members at the time that it is essential to bear in mind the fact that the vast majority of Ofcom's functions and responsibilities do not relate to devolved matters. I appreciate that there are areas of overlap with devolved matters, but measures are in place to ensure that the interests of the nations and regions are taken into account. There is therefore no need for committees such as those proposed in the new clause.

Mr. Simon Thomas

I should like to make two points. First, there is a material difference between these amendments and those that I tabled in Committee, where I proposed that those bodies review Ofcom's work. The Minister will note that my hon. Friend the Member for North Tayside (Pete Wishart) is not making such a proposal—the committees would be advisory and would not deal with statutory legislation.

Secondly, how would the Minister react if the Welsh and the Scottish Executives set up their own bodies, as they are perfectly entitled to do, to provide advice on Ofcom's work in Wales and Scotland? That would be—

Madam Deputy Speaker

Order. That is getting rather lengthy for an intervention. I think that the Minister has got the point.

Mr. Timms

The matter is entirely for those Executives. However, the House should acknowledge the fact that the Bill specifically addresses those concerns. The hon. Member for North Tayside (Pete Wishart) spoke about the devolved Administrations having a diminished role, but that is not the case at all, and is a mistaken characterisation of the Bill. We have included a specific provision, clause 1, which requires Ofcom to establish and maintain offices in Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and England. The hon. Gentleman referred to a vague provision; clearly, he has not read clause 1, which includes specific requirements. The content board and the consumer panel will have designated members who can represent the interests of people in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, as set out in clause 11. Ofcom has started to look for people to fill those positions.

My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Anniesland (John Robertson) referred to the fact that we are exploring consultative arrangements to support the national representatives on the content board and the consumer panel, and there will be discussions between officials, devolved Administrations and Ofcom. Ofcom will also agree memorandums of understanding with the relevant Secretaries of State on issues such as consultation on national appointments; the holding of regular meetings with the devolved Administrations; and the production of an account in Ofcom's annual report of its activities in the nations. The Bill now fully addresses the concerns that the hon. Member for North Tayside and others have expressed in debate.

On amendment No. 206, Ofcom is already required under clause 331 to have regard to the different interests of the various parts of the UK in carrying out its duties. The clause ensures that Ofcom will bear those interests in mind throughout its deliberations. The Bill does not specify how those interests may be expressed, but it will be possible for the devolved Administrations, along with others, to make representations in their chosen form and for Ofcom to take them into account. There is no need to include in the Bill the specific provision proposed in amendment No. 206. Of course it is tempting to believe that Ofcom should be expanded to include a person to address each of the concerns specifically. In reality, Ofcom as a whole should address those concerns, and the Bill provides for that.

5.15 pm

Pete Wishart

There seems to be a general misunderstanding about what we are trying to secure through the amendments. We want to improve the relationship between the devolved institutions and the Ofcom board. We are not asking for anything more than that. It is reasonable to suggest that for good governance there should be a proper relationship between the devolved institutions and the Ofcom board, and I do not see why there should be any objection to that.

With regard to the number on the Ofcom board, I do not find the argument of the hon. Member for Glasgow, Anniesland (John Robertson) convincing. Perhaps we should further reduce the number of Scottish MPs—I am sure that that would go some way towards improving the representation of Scotland. It is a ridiculous argument that representation would be improved by making a smaller body that does not take account of the interests of the different nations and regions of the United Kingdom.

To suggest, as the Minister did, that we do not have a diminished role is utter nonsense. We had a place on the ITC board; we had a place on the other national regulatory boards; we do not have a place on the Ofcom board. That represents a diminution of our role and our influence in the new broadcasting regime. The Minister shakes his head, but how can he say—

Mr. Simon Thomas

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way. When the Minister summed up his case, he said that the matters in question were not devolved, so why should there be representation for Wales? The hon. Member for North Tayside (Pete Wishart) pointed out that we had such representation. If it was okay pre-devolution for Wales and Scotland to be represented on those bodies, why is it not okay post-devolution?

Pete Wishart

As always, the hon. Gentleman makes a good point. The Minister will have to consider that. We had a place pre-devolution. Now, somehow, because we have a Parliament and national assemblies, our role is diminished. I do not understand the Minister's argument. All the amendments seek to do is establish a proper relationship between the devolved institutions and the Ofcom board. I am disappointed that the Minister cannot accept that, so unfortunately we shall press the matter to a Division.

Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:—

The House divided: Ayes 47, Noes 415.

Division No. 99]	[5:17 pm
AYES
Allan, Richard	Marris, Rob(Wolverh'ton SW)
Barrett, John	Moore, Michael
Berth, rh A. J.	Murphy, Jim(Eastwood)
Brooke, Mrs Annette L.	Murrison, Dr Andrew
Burnett, John	Oaten, Mark(Winchester)
Burnham, Andy	Öpik, Lembit
Burns, Simon	Price, Adam(E Carmarthen & Dinefwr)
Burnside, David
Burstow, Paul	Prisk, Mark(Hertford)
Cable, Dr. Vincent	Pugh, Dr. John
Caborn, rh Richard	Quinn, Lawrie
Calton, Mrs Patsy	Reid, Alan(Argyll & Bute)
Caplin, Ivor	Rendel, David
Carmichael, Alistair	Robertson, Angus(Moray)
Chidgey, David	Salmond, Alex
Cotter, Brian	Sanders, Adrian
Cummings, John	Smyth, Rev. Martin(Belfast S)
Davey, Edward(Kingston)	Spelman, Mrs Caroline
Doughty, Sue	Taylor, Matthew(Truro)
Etherington, Bill	Taylor, Dr. Richard(Wyre F)
Ewing, Annabelle	Thurso, John
Foster, Don(Bath)	Turner, Dennis(Wolverh'ton SE)
Garnier, Edward	Turner, Dr. Desmond(Brighton Kemptown)
George, Andrew(St. Ives)
Gidley, Sandra	Turner, Neil(Wigan)
Green, Matthew(Ludlow)	Viggers, Peter
Harris, Dr. Evan(Oxford W & Abingdon)	Vis, Dr. Rudi
	Webb, Steve(Northavon)
Harvey, Nick	Weir, Michael
Heath, David	Williams, Hywel(Caernarfon)
Hepburn, Stephen	Williams, Roger(Brecon)
Holmes, Paul	Willis, Phil
Kennedy, rh Charles(Ross Skye & Inverness)	Winterton, Sir Nicholas
	(Macclesfield)
Kirkwood, Sir Archy	Winterton, Ms Rosie(Doncaster C)
Knight, rh Greg(E Yorkshire)
Laing, Mrs Eleanor	Woodward, Shaun
Lamb, Norman	Worthington, Tony
Laws, David(Yeovil)	Yeo, Tim(S Suffolk)
Llwyd, Elfyn
McLoughlin, Patrick	Tellers for the Ayes:
MacShane, Denis	Pete Wishart and
Mactaggart, Fiona	Mr. Simon Thomas
NOES
Adams, Irene(Paisley N)	Baird, Vera
Ainger, Nick	Baldry, Tony
Ainsworth, Peter(E Surrey)	Banks, Tony
Alexander, Douglas	Barker, Gregory
Allen, Graham	Barnes, Harry
Amess, David	Baron, John(Billericay)
Anderson, rh Donald(Swansea E)	Barron, rh Kevin
Anderson, Janet(Rossendale & Darwen)	Battle, John
	Bayley, Hugh
Arbuthnot, rh James	Beard, Nigel
Armstrong, rh Ms Hilary	Begg, Miss Anne
Atkins, Charlotte	Bellingham, Henry
Austin, John	Benn, Hilary
Bacon, Richard	Bennett, Andrew
Bailey, Adrian	Benton, Joe(Bootle)

Beresford, Sir Paul	Davies, Quentin(Grantham & Stamford)
Berry, Roger
Best, Harold	Davis, rh David(Haltemprice & Howden)
Blackman, Liz
Blears, Ms Hazel	Dawson, Hilton
Blizzard, Bob	Dean, Mrs Janet
Blunt, Crispin	Denham, rh John
Boswell, Tim	Dhanda, Parmjit
Bottomley, Peter(Worthing W)	Dismore, Andrew
Bradley, rh Keith(Withington)	Dobbin, Jim(Heywood)
Bradley, Peter(The Wrekin)	Dobson, rh Frank
Bradshaw, Ben	Donohoe, Brian H.
Brady, Graham	Doran, Frank
Brazier, Julian	Dowd, Jim(Lewisham W)
Brennan, Kevin	Drown, Ms Julia
Brown, Russell(Dumfries)	Duncan, Peter(Galloway)
Browning, Mrs Angela	Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth
Bryant, Chris	Eagle, Angela(Wallasey)
Buck, Ms Karen	Eagle, Maria(L'poolGarston)
Burden, Richard	Edwards, Huw
Burnett, John	Efford, Clive
Burnham, Andy	Ellman, Mrs Louise
Burns, Simon	Ennis, Jeff(Barnsley E)
Burt, Alistair	Evans, Nigel
Byers, rh Stephen	Ewing, Annabelle
Cairns, David	Fabricant, Michael
Cameron, David	Fallon, Michael
Campbell, Alan(Tynemouth)	Farrelly, Paul
Campbell, Ronnie(Blyth V)	Field, Mark(Cities of London & Westminster)
Caplin, Ivor
Casale, Roger	Fisher, Mark
Cash, William	Fitzpatrick, Jim
Caton, Martin	Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna
Cawsey, Ian(Brigg)	Flight, Howard
Challen, Colin	Flook, Adrian
Chapman, Ben(Wirral S)	Forth, rh Eric
Chapman, Sir Sydney(Chipping Barnet)	Foster, rh Derek
	Foster, Michael(Worcester)
Chaytor, David	Foster, Michael Jabez(Hastings & Rye)
Chope, Christopher
Clapham, Michael	Fox, Dr. Liam
Clappison, James	Francis, Dr. Hywel
Clark, Mrs Helen(Peterborough)	Francois, Mark
Clark, Dr. Lynda(Edinburgh Pentlands)	Gardiner, Barry
	Garnier, Edward
Clark, Paul(Gillingham)	George, rh Bruce(Walsall S)
Clarke, rh Tom(Coatbridge & Chryston)	Gerrard, Neil
	Gibb, Nick(Bognor Regis)
Clarke, Tony(Northampton S)	Gibson, Dr. Ian
Clelland, David	Gilroy, Linda
Coaker, Vernon	Godsiff, Roger
Coffey, Ms Ann	Goggins, Paul
Cohen, Harry	Goodman, Paul
Coleman, Iain	Gray, James(N Wilts)
Collins, Tim	Grayling, Chris
Colman, Tony	Green, Damian(Ashford)
Cook, Frank(Stockton N)	Greenway, John
Cooper, Yvette	Grieve, Dominic
Cormack, Sir Patrick	Griffiths, Jane(Reading E)
Cousins, Jim	Griffiths, Nigel(Edinburgh S)
Cran, James(Beverley)	Griffiths, Win(Bridgend)
Crausby, David	Grogan, John
Cruddas, Jon	Gummer, rh John
Cryer, Ann(Keighley)	Hague, rh William
Cryer, John(Hornchurch)	Hain, rh Peter
Cummings, John	Hall, Mike(Weaver Vale)
Cunningham, rh Dr. Jack	Hamilton, David(Midlothian)
(Copeland)	Hamilton, Fabian(Leeds NE)
Cunningham, Jim(Coventry S)	Hammond, Philip
Cunningham, Tony(Workington)	Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Dalyell, Tam	Harris, Tom(Glasgow Cathcart)
Davey, Valerie(Bristol W)	Havard, Dai(Merthyr Tydfil & Rhymney)
David, Wayne
Davidson, Ian	Hawkins, Nick
Davies, rh Denzil(Llanelli)	Hayes, John(S Holland)
Davies, Geraint(Croydon C)	Healey, John

Heathcoat-Amory, rh David	Luke, Iain(Dundee E)
Henderson, Doug(Newcastle N)	McAvoy, Thomas
Henderson, Ivan(Harwich)	McCabe, Stephen
Hendrick, Mark	McCafferty, Chris
Hendry, Charles	McDonagh, Siobhain
Hepburn, Stephen	MacDonald, Calum
Heppell, John	McDonnell, John
Hesford, Stephen	MacDougall, John
Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia	McFall, John
Heyes, David	McGuire, Mrs Anne
Hill, Keith(Streatham)	McIntosh, Miss Anne
Hoban, Mark(Fareham)	McIsaac, Shona
Hodge, Margaret	Mackay, rh Andrew
Hoey, Kate(Vauxhall)	McKechin, Ann
Hood, Jimmy(Clydesdale)	McKenna, Rosemary
Hope, Phil(Corby)	Mackinlay, Andrew
Hopkins, Kelvin	McLoughlin, Patrick
Horam, John(Orpington)	McNamara, Kevin
Howarth, rh Alan(Newport E)	McNulty, Tony
Howarth, George(Knowsley N & Sefton E)	MacShane, Denis
	Mactaggart, Fiona
Howarth, Gerald(Aldershot)	McWalter, Tony
Hughes, Beverley(Stretford & Urmston)	McWilliam, John
	Mahmood, Khalid
Hughes, Kevin(Doncaster N)	Mahon, Mrs Alice
Humble, Mrs Joan	Malins, Humfrey
Hunter, Andrew	Mallaber, Judy
Hurst, Alan(Braintree)	Mann, John(Bassetlaw)
Hutton, rh John	Maples, John
Iddon, Dr. Brian	Marris, Rob(Wolverh'ton SW)
Illsley, Eric	Marshall, Jim(Leicester S)
Ingram, rh Adam	Martlew, Eric
Jack, rh Michael	Mates, Michael
Jackson, Glenda(Hampstead & Highgate)	Mawhinney, rh Sir Brian
	Mercer, Patrick
Jackson, Robert(Wantage)	Michael, rh Alun
Jamieson, David	Milburn, rh Alan
Jenkin, Bernard	Miliband, David
Johnson, Alan(Hull W)	Miller, Andrew
Johnson, Boris(Henley)	Mitchell, Austin(Gt Grimsby)
Johnson, Miss Melanie(Welwyn Hatfield)	Moffatt, Laura
	Mole, Chris
Jones, Jon Owen(Cardiff C)	Moonie, Dr. Lewis
Jones, Martyn(Clwyd S)	Morgan, Julie
Jowell, rh Tessa	Morley, Elliot
Joyce, Eric(Falkirk W)	Morris, rh Estelle
Kaufman, rh Gerald	Moss, Malcolm
Keen, Alan(Feltham)	Mountford, Kali
Keen, Ann(Brentford)	Mudie, George
Kelly, Ruth(Bolton W)	Mullin, Chris
Key, Robert(Salisbury)	Murphy, Denis(Wansbeck)
Khabra, Piara S.	Murphy, rh Paul(Torfaen)
Kilfoyle, Peter	Murrison, Dr. Andrew
King, Andy(Rugby)	Naysmith, Dr. Doug
Kirkbride, Miss Julie	O'Brien, Stephen(Eddisbury)
Kirkwood, Sir Archy	O'Hara, Edward
Knight, Jim(S Dorset)	Olner, Bill
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen	Osborne, George(Tatton)
Laing, Mrs Eleanor	Osborne, Sandra(Ayr)
Lammy, David	Page, Richard
Laxton, Bob(Derby N)	Paice, James
Lazarowicz, Mark	Palmer, Dr. Nick
Leigh, Edward	Picking, Anne
Leslie, Christopher	Pickthall, Colin
Lewis, Ivan(Bury S)	Plaskitt, James
Lewis, Dr. Julian(New Forest E)	Pollard, Kerry
Lewis, Terry(Worsley)	Pond, Chris(Gravesham)
Liddell, rh Mrs Helen	Pope, Greg(Hyndburn)
Liddell-Grainger, Ian	Portillo, rh Michael
Lilley, rh Peter	Pound, Stephen
Linton, Martin	Prentice, Ms Bridget(Lewisham E)
Lloyd, Tony(Manchester C)
Loughton, Tim	Prentice, Gordon(Pendle)
Love, Andrew	Prisk, Mark(Hertford)
Lucas, Ian(Wrexham)	Prosser, Gwyn
Luff, Peter(M-Worcs)	Purchase, Ken

Quin, rh Joyce	Stringer, Graham
Quinn, Lawrie	Stuart, Ms Gisela
Rammell, Bill	Sutcliffe, Gerry
Randall, John	Swayne, Desmond
Rapson, Syd(Portsmouth N)	Syms, Robert
Raynsford, rh Nick	Tami, Mark(Alyn)
Redwood, rh John	Taylor, rh Ann(Dewsbury)
Reed, Andy(Loughborough)	Taylor, Dari(Stockton S)
Reid, rh Dr. John(Hamilton N & Bellshill)	Taylor, Ian(Esher)
	Taylor, John(Solihull)
Robathan, Andrew	Taylor, Sir Teddy
Robertson, John(Glasgow Anniesland)	Thomas, Gareth(Clwyd W)
	Thomas, Gareth(Harrow W)
Robertson, Laurence(Tewk'b'ry)	Timms, Stephen
Robinson, Geoffrey(Coventry NW)	Todd, Mark(S Derbyshire)
	Tredinnick, David
Robinson, Peter(Belfast E)	Trickett, Jon
Roche, Mrs Barbara	Truswell, Paul
Roe, Mrs Marion	Turner, Andrew(Isle of Wight)
Rooney, Terry	Turner, Dennis(Wolverh'ton SE)
Rosindell, Andrew	Turner, Dr. Desmond(Brighton Kemptown)
Ruane, Chris
Ruffley, David	Turner, Neil(Wigan)
Russell, Ms Christine(City of Chester)	Twigg, Derek(Halton)
	Twigg, Stephen(Enfield)
Ryan, Joan(Enfield N)	Tyrie, Andrew
Sarwar, Mohammad	Vaz, Keith(Leicester E)
Savidge, Malcolm	Walley, Ms Joan
Sawford, Phil	Walter, Robert
Sayeed, Jonathan	Ward, Claire
Sedgemore, Brian	Wareing, Robert N.
Selous, Andrew	Waterson, Nigel
Shaw, Jonathan	Watkinson, Angela
Sheerman, Barry	Watts, David
Shepherd, Richard	White, Brian
Sheridan, Jim	Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Shipley, Ms Debra	Whittingdale, John
Simmonds, Mark	Wicks, Malcolm
Simpson, Keith(M-Norfolk)	Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann
Singh, Marsha	Wiggin, Bill
Skinner, Dennis	Williams, rh Alan(Swansea W)
Smith, rh Chris(Islington S & Finsbury)	Wilshire, David
	Wilson, Brian
Smith, Geraldine(Morecambe & Lunesdale)	Winnick, David
	Winterton, Ann(Congleton)
Smith, Jacqui(Redditch)	Winterton, Sir Nicholas
Smith, John(Glamorgan)	(Macclesfield)
Soames, Nicholas	Winterton, Ms Rosie(Doncaster C)
Soley, Clive
Southworth, Helen	Woodward, Shaun
Spellar, rh John	Woolas, Phil
Spicer, Sir Michael	Wright, Anthony D.(Gt
Spink, Bob(Castle Point)	Yarmouth)
Spring, Richard	Wright, David(Telford)
Stanley, rh Sir John	Wright, Tony(Cannock)
Steen, Anthony	Yeo, Tim(S Suffolk)
Steinberg, Gerry	Young, rh Sir George
Stevenson, George
Stinchcombe, Paul	Tellers for the Noes:
Strang, rh Dr. Gavin	Gillian Merron and
Streeter, Gary	Mr. Fraser Kemp)

Question accordingly negatived.