Unauthorised Camping (Hansard, 14 July 2003)

§ 4. Mr. Colin Pickthall (West Lancashire
): What measures he proposes to assist (a) the police and (b) local authorities in preventing large-scale unauthorised camping. [125057]

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department(Fiona Mactaggart)
The Government have tabled amendments to the Anti-social Behaviour Bill to extend police powers to take prompt and firm action against unauthorised encampments, irrespective of their size, where space has been provided in local authority areas.

§ Mr. Pickthall
Like many other towns, Skelmersdale is regularly plagued by large numbers of travellers who turn up in as many as 200 caravans at a time to occupy playing fields, factory car parks or any open space that they can find. It costs the local authority vast amounts of money in cleaning up the disgusting mess after they have left and in investing in miles of security fencing. Does my hon. Friend agree that the police have adequate powers but, owing to the scale of the problem, cannot use them properly, and that the guidelines for local authorities have built-in delays that make them inoperable? Does what she has announced cover the fact that there is at last a joint initiative between the Home Office and the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister to draw up an effective policy to deal with the issue and to relieve the people of Skelmersdale, including me, from this awful problem?

§ Fiona Mactaggart
I thank my hon. Friend for his comments on an issue on which he has been active for many years. I read the Adjournment debate that he initiated at about this time of year in 1999 on precisely this problem, so I can see it has been a chronic problem in Skelmersdale. I share his optimism about the capacity of the new guidance and better co-operation between the Home Office and the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister. We have powers, but it is a question of using them. The guidance that is out for consultation will help local authorities and the police to work better together to deal with the problem of large-scale unauthorised 8 camping that he has highlighted. The final part of that guidance specifically focuses on that issue, which I know is a very serious problem in many areas.

§ Mr. Nick Hawkins (Surrey Heath)
The Minister will be aware that, although the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, the hon. Member for Harrow, East (Mr. McNulty), was helpful in Committee on the Anti-social Behaviour Bill, he said that the Government were prepared to consider further a problem that affects my constituency that is similar to that raised by the hon. Member for West Lancashire (Mr. Pickthall). A group of travellers succeeded in purchasing land on a flood plain, on which they improperly dumped thousands of tonnes of hardcore. Owing to delays in the law, it is difficult to do anything about that. The Under-Secretary promised that the Government would look into that variant of this massive problem. Will the Minister undertake to work with other Departments and to meet me to discuss constructive ways of extending the Government's efforts?

§ Fiona Mactaggart
One member of the ministerial team will certainly be happy to meet the hon. Gentleman. I share his optimism about the commitments in Committee of my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary. There are already substantial powers on dumping. In preparation for answering this question, I asked for some information about the number of prosecutions on dumping. It seems that local forces are often not as dynamic as they could be in using powers to prosecute when dumping has occurred.

§ Mr. Tony Clarke (Northampton, South)
Northamptonshire's geographical position means that it has acute problems at times with illegal encampments. The problem is not so much that there is not enough guidance, but that often the guidance is misinterpreted by local authorities and the police force. At times there is a lack of co-ordination between local authorities and police forces in deciding who should first take action. Will my hon. Friend ensure that when she gives advice to local authorities and the police force, she does not just tell them what can be done or what they could do, but what they should do, and who is responsible for taking the first action?

§ Fiona Mactaggart
I thank my hon. Friend for that helpful question. His message of better co-operation and collaboration is a key one. It is one reason why the guidance consultation paper is a joint paper involving the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister and the Home Office. We are working together to ensure that that collaboration at national level is reflected at local level. We are seeking to provide guidance that leads to a robust approach—a phrase that is used in the draft guidance—that can be reflected on the ground.

§ Miss Julie Kirkbride (Bromsgrove)
Does the Minister recognise that one of the principal problems that leads to large-scale encampments not being dealt with is that the police cannot deal with the numbers involved and ensure public safety? That has certainly been the case in Worcestershire. I would be grateful if she commented on that. If the Home Secretary will not recognise that problem, does the hon. Lady at least understand that 9 her Government's determination to go ahead with a Bill to ban fox hunting will only add to the problem of public order and public safety?

§ Fiona Mactaggart
The efforts of the Conservative party to defend the rights of fox hunters under any guise are becoming almost entertaining. However, the hon. Lady makes a serious point about mass gatherings and the need for intelligence where mass gatherings are planned. I hope that the fox hunting community, which has put a great deal of effort into persuading us all that it is a law-abiding community, does not intend to break the law and organise in a way that means that people are not aware of any gatherings that it might be planning.
In the joint guidance on which we are consulting, the final section is about the mass gatherings, and especially those that have expensive security and clean-up implications. We are seeking guidance about best practice and examples of best practice from those with direct experience so that we can assist people in dealing with some of the practical difficulties that they face.