HC Deb 23 January 2003 vol 398 cc415-7
1. Peter Bottomley (Worthing, West)

If he will make a statement on the system of assessing performance against the targets he has set for outputs from his public spending increases. [92731]

The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Paul Boateng)

The Government have invited the Comptroller and Auditor General to take responsibility for the validation of systems used in reporting on public service agreement targets. The National Audit Office is conducting a pilot study and full implementation will get under way from April this year.

Peter Bottomley

I hope that the Treasury and the National Audit Office will survey passengers, pupils, parents and the police about what they feel about the targets being set and that the feedback will go to Departments. While people still receive letters from hospitals saying that appointments made more than a year ago have been postponed for a further year and that the hospitals hope to receive the funding that is necessary for them to meet their targets—I have such a letter with me—many will need a lot of convincing that the targets for the Departments' work or for the Treasury's standards are being set properly or met. The past five years have been disappointing.

Mr. Boateng

I will, of course, be happy to receive and respond to the letter that the hon. Gentleman mentioned. I know that he takes these issues seriously and that he thinks about them. He will therefore recognise that public service agreement targets represent a major reform in public administration. He will also recognise their importance in focusing Departments on delivery, and that point applies to Departments across the board. He will further recognise the technical challenges in relation to data collection and, yes, the need to ensure that customer satisfaction and opinion are taken into account in measuring outcomes. That is why I know that he will welcome the National Audit Office's involvement. That will produce results that he and I know will assist in making sure that this tool—it is no more than that—becomes effective in promoting delivery.

Alan Howarth (Newport, East):

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the question of the hon. Member for Worthing, West (Peter Bottomley) would be academic if we were to enter the euro? Far from there being increases in public expenditure in Britain, we would be required to accept deep cuts in public investment. Does my right hon. Friend accept that, whereas the Chancellor's prudent interpretation of the stability and growth pact would drive a coach and horses through it, the Commission's destructive interpretation would unfortunately drive another coach and horses through the Chancellor's spending plans?

Mr. Boateng

My right hon. Friend is stretching the question somewhat, but I am bound to say that the questions of the hon. Member for Worthing, West (Peter Bottomley) are always academic and thoughtful. This one was no exception.

Mr. Michael Howard (Folkestone and Hythe)

Can the Chief Secretary confirm that the Chancellor has been invited to attend and give evidence to the Public Administration Committee on the question of targets? Will that invitation be accepted?

Mr. Boateng

The Chancellor—or rather the Treasury—has indeed been invited to give evidence. As the Minister responsible for PSA targets, I look forward very much to doing that.

Mr. Howard

I am delighted to hear that the Chief Secretary is going. Will he confirm that, at the Treasury's request, we provided it as long ago as 25 November with a 300-page dossier that shows that the Government have failed or are failing on 40 per cent. of the targets that they set in 1998 and on 75 per cent. of those set in 2000? The Treasury has repeatedly been asked to provide the calculations on which its ludicrous claims are based. Will he now provide the justification?

Mr. Boateng

We have provided the calculations. The true figures are 87 per cent. and 93 per cent. I look forward to studying the evidence that the right hon. and learned Gentleman would seek to produce to substantiate his figures, which, on the face of it, appear to be absolute nonsense.

Mr. Howard

The Chief Secretary has had that evidence since 25 November; it is in our document. Despite repeated requests, he has failed to provide any supporting evidence for the figures that he has just given. Is it not the truth that the target regime is a shambles? Did not the Secretary of State for International Development tell the Select Committee there has been a proliferation of targets and that they are seen as what she described as control freakery? The Chief Secretary's Customs and Excise department described one of its targets as a crude selective measure, and five major Departments, including the Department of Health and the Home Office, have still not published the reports that were promised last autumn. Does this total shambles not tell us more about the Government's failure to deliver on the public services than any of the right hon. Gentleman's weasel words? Is it any wonder that the Chancellor did not have the guts to answer this question himself?

Mr. Boateng

The right hon. and learned Gentleman is going on a bit, but I think that he has missed the point. Is he really suggesting that any management system, business or enterprise worth its name should not use targets? Even he will know from his experience at the Bar that the most rarefied of chambers—I have no doubt that he was a member of a rarefied set of chambers—has targets. It has targets for responding to the telephone and for fee levels. Is he suggesting that we should not have targets because, frankly, that would be absurd?

Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover)

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the question asked by my right hon. Friend the Member for Newport, East (Alan Howarth) is indicative of the fact that Labour Against the Euro is a broad church? Surely the setting up of the Franco-German axis in the past few days strengthens the arm of all of us who are against the euro and encourages the Chancellor to keep weaving and dodging.

Mr. Boateng

As someone who worships and preaches in a broad church—but not that broad church—I must say that my hon. Friend stretches the point, although he is entitled to do so. He might reflect on the issue of targets, however, and in particular whether the 20 per cent. across-the-board cut on spending proposed by the Conservatives would enable us to deliver on our commitment to improving public services, health, education, transport and infrastructure. The cut would be a disaster and I am sure that the whole House—or at least its Labour Members—will join me in condemning that approach.

Matthew Taylor (Truro and St. Austell)

Can the Chief Secretary tell us how many of the targets that the Treasury claims have been met have been only partially met—or what is commonly known to the layman as not met?

Mr. Boateng

I have a little list, which I am happy to share with the hon. Gentleman in detail. Some 87 per cent. were met or partly met—[HON. MEMBERS: "Ah!"] Hold on a minute. Is the hon. Gentleman seriously suggesting that it is not worth setting a target that requires 75 per cent. of 11-year-olds to meet numeracy standards when the Department for Education and Skills has ensured that 73 per cent. of those pupils perform to that standard, which is up from 62 per cent. when the Conservatives had stewardship of the nation's affairs? I think that that is a target worth striving for.

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