§ 32. Mr. John Bercow (Buckingham)To ask the hon. Member for Middlesbrough, representing the Church Commissioners, what representations he has received about the employment rights of the clergy.[81526]
§ 34. Mr. Huw Edwards (Monmouth)To ask the hon. Member for Middlesbrough, representing the Church Commissioners, what recent discussions the Church Commissioners have had on employment rights for clergy.[81523]
§ 36. Mr. Ben Chapman (Wirral, South)To ask the hon. Member for Middlesbrough, representing the Church Commissioners, when an announcement is expected on the review of employment rights for clergy.[81530]
§ Second Church Estates Commissioner (Mr. Stuart Bell)Hon. Members may recall from an answer I gave some months ago that the Church of England is considering the Department of Trade and Industry discussion document on employment status in relation to statutory employment rights. The Church will make a formal response by 11 December.
§ Mr. BercowI am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his typically helpful reply. Does he agree with me that the idea that the spiritual nature of the work undertaken by the clergy should continue to prevent them being granted contracts of service is now thoroughly anachronistic, and that a compelling case has been made for the use of the power in section 23 of the Employment Relations Act 1999 to extend proper employment rights to members of the clergy, who are frequently under-rewarded, but who should be equitably treated?
§ Mr. BellI am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his question; it is a pleasure to have him back at Church Commissioners Question Time. In the interests of Parliament, I hope that it is a brief sojourn and that he will not be with us for too long.[Laughter.] The Second Church Estates Commissioner can be dispassionate about these matters.
The Church is fully cognisant of the view that the hon. Gentleman expresses, which has been expressed on the Floor of the House on previous occasions. Clergy do not have legal protection against unfair dismissal, as they 362 are not employees but office holders. As part of formulating the Church's response to the DTI on 11 December, we are examining the employment status of atypical workers. Consideration will be given to the issue, and the hon. Gentleman's comments and support will be helpful to the Church.
§ Mr. EdwardsMy hon. Friend may recall the question I put to the Prime Minister on this very issue. I have some faith that the Government will be persuaded to grant employment rights to clergy and ministers of religion, but less faith that the Church will campaign for that as vigorously as it could. May I urge my hon. Friend to work with the Church Commissioners to ensure that the submission they make to the consultation supports the campaign for employment rights for clergy?
§ Mr. BellYes, I was in the House when my hon. Friend put that passionate question to the Prime Minister, and I think that we all felt for him at the time. The person to whom he was referring is not in the Church of England but in another Church. We have campaigned on the matter, and thanks to my hon. Friend the Member for Wirral, South (Mr. Chapman), who has also asked a question, there has been a consistent campaign in the House for five years. The Church is listening carefully and the bishops have discussed the matter. I am hopeful that we will come to a conclusion that will satisfy my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (Mr. Edwards) and the House.
§ Mr. ChapmanIt is important that we move forward from this out-of-date position whereby the clergy have spiritual rather than temporal contracts and poor conditions of service, and they are effectively excluded from employment rights and legislation. It is good that we will have an early announcement, and I hope that it is as positive as hon. Members have suggested it ought to be.
§ Mr. BellThe Church of England is working closely with ecumenical partners on this issue because it realises that it crosses many boundaries and involves many Churches.
The hon Member for uckingham (Mr. Bercow) mentioned stipends. In the 1990s the national average stipend was £11,668, and by 2001 it was £17,030, so we are generous to our clergy. We hope to move to a salary of £20,000, and that fact should be recognised as we consider employment rights.