HC Deb 08 May 2002 vol 385 cc137-40
2. Mr. Bill Wiggin (Leominster)

If he will make a statement on ministerial discussions on the effect of the Budget on health provision in Wales. [53145]

The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Paul Murphy)

I have spoken with the Assembly's Minister for Health and Social Services about the increase to the Welsh block consequential on the increases on Government spending on health announced in the recent Budget. The resulting amount for the block for 2007–08 is some £1.8 billion over the next five years, and I am pleased to say that the Assembly intends to spend the full amount on health in Wales.

Mr. Wiggin

On 10 April—Hansard, volume 382, columns 3-4—the Secretary of State kindly agreed to ensure that the Minister for Health and Social Services in Wales was aware of the terrible bed shortages in Hereford hospital. Will the right hon. Gentleman say how he got on in those discussions?

Mr. Murphy

We are still in correspondence, obviously, with the Welsh Minister for Health and Social Services. The hon. Gentleman will know that the movement of patients, especially across mid—Wales, to hospitals in Hereford, Shrewsbury and elsewhere is very important. Arrangements are in place to deal with such matters. The hon. Gentleman may rest assured that, when we receive the result of our correspondence, I shall be back in touch with him.

Mrs. Jackie Lawrence (Preseli Pembrokeshire)

I am sure that my right hon. Friend will agree that, in many instances, Wales leads the way. However, given the Budget announcements on health, will he urge the Welsh Minister for Health and Social Services to follow the English example and have independent audit and inspection for health services in Wales to ensure complete transparency?

Mr. Murphy

In both Wales and England, we understand the importance of ensuring that investment goes along with reform. We cannot achieve improvement in the health service unless those two factors go together. I have talked to the First Minister about such matters, and my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Wales has also talked to the Minister for Health and Social Services. The Assembly Cabinet and the First Minister are, in principle, very content with and relaxed about the idea of ensuring that there should be a proper audit regime. That regime should be proactive, and not necessarily retrospective on its own. These matters will be discussed in the next few months when we deal with the legislation framing the bodies involved, but my hon. Friend may rest assured that the principles underlying the reforms of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health are the same as those that underlie what the Assembly wishes to do.

Mr. Elfyn Llwyd (Meirionnydd Nant Conwy)

Will the Secretary of State say what is the logic in devolving health to the National Assembly for Wales and establishing an audit body that is responsible to this House?

Mr. Murphy

I would have thought that the most important thing is that the patients come first in Wales or England. There is nothing wrong with people in Wales looking at best practice in health trusts in England, comparing notes and seeing what happens. It would be foolish if Wales, a country of 3 million people, did not look across the border to England to see what best practice occurs there. The hon. Gentleman is aware that in other respects, the Assembly is free to do what it wishes. At the end of the day, it is up to the Assembly to decide how best to implement health reform in Wales, but when it sees sensible reform here in England, it should include that as well.

Ian Lucas (Wrexham)

Is my right hon. Friend aware that some excellent health care is provided to my constituents by, for example, the Countess of Chester hospital in Chester and the Robert Jones and Agnes Hunt Orthopaedic and District hospital in Gobowen? The sensible way ahead is for us to work together with English health authorities to bring about the best possible provision of care for my constituents.

Mr. Murphy

I was conscious of that in my reply to the hon. Member for Leominster (Mr. Wiggin), when I said the same thing. There is an important link between English health trusts on the border and Welsh health trusts. It is important that we learn from each other, and that applies in north Wales as much as in south Wales.

Mr. Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley)

In recent days, we have learned the shocking news that patients heading for the accident and emergency unit at the Prince Philip hospital in Llanelli after 5 o'clock were diverted to other hospitals at Swansea and Carmarthen, miles away, because of a lack of anaesthetists, and that patients in need of life—saving pacemaker operations have to wait longer in Wales than those with a similar need in Poland because of a lack of heart specialists in Wales. Are the Government to blame or is the Welsh Assembly?

Mr. Murphy

I would have thought that the Conservative party was to blame as well. [Interruption]. Tory Members hold up five fingers, but it was 20 years of Tory Government that led to the underfunding of the national health service.

Of course the hon. Gentleman is right to point, as the Western Maildid yesterday, to those two distressing stories. Of course it is important to address those issues. As we heard in the previous exchange, health matters are devolved to the National Assembly for Wales, which has to deal with them as it thinks best. However, things are not as bad as the hon. Gentleman says. Only a week or two ago, the Assembly met its target that no patient should wait more than 12 months for heart surgery. More than 400 extra doctors and 500 extra nurses are being trained this year, and by 2004, more than 4,300 nurses, midwives and health visitors will be coming out of training. Of course it will take time. The Government have given the National Assembly for Wales the biggest increase ever in public spending on the health service. The Assembly itself will carry out reforms. Between the Assembly and the Government, we will have the best health service in the world.

Mr. Evans

Part of the problem is that we have heard all this before. When the right hon. Member for Holborn and St. Pancras (Mr. Dobson) was Secretary of State for Health, he said: waiting lists are rather like a supertanker. It will take time to slow them down, to stop them, to turn them round, but turn them round we will."—[Official Report, 17 November 1997; Vol. 301, c.35.] Since then, the tanker has sunk. In Wales, up to March 2002, the number of patients waiting between 12 and 18 months for a first out—patient appointment had risen by 69 per cent., the number of those waiting more than 18 months is up by 118 per cent and there is a nine—year waiting list for children needing non—cosmetic plastic surgery, yet Government expenditure on the NHS in Wales is £102 more per person than in England. When will the Government ditch the spin, realise that patients will get treatment not through promises but through action, and deliver on an improved health service for the people of Wales?

Mr. Murphy

The hon. Gentleman knows that the national health service in Wales will receive an extra £2 billion in five years' time. At present, the Assembly spends just over £3 billion on the health service. In five years' time, the figure will be nearly £6 billion. Of course we are putting the investment in, but the hon. Gentleman knows that to ensure that we achieve delivery and improvement, we have to reform the health service. Yet he and his colleagues voted against the reforms of the national health service in Wales in this Chamber some months ago. He cannot have it both ways. When will he tell us what proposals his party has to improve the health service in Wales and the rest of the United Kingdom?