HC Deb 03 July 2002 vol 388 cc227-41 3.31 pm
The Secretary of State for the Home Department(Mr. David Blunkett)

With permission, Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a statement in launching a consultation exercise on entitlement cards and identity fraud. Copies of the consultation paper will be placed in the Vote Office.

Since the terrorist atrocities in the United States, I have been asked a number of times whether the Government would introduce identity cards. I have made it clear that any debate must not focus on issues of national security alone. Of equal importance are the issues of citizenship and entitlement to services. The focus should therefore be on whether entitlement cards would be genuinely useful to people in their daily lives and in affirming their identity. That will be the acid test of any scheme.

In a parliamentary answer on 5 February, I ruled out a compulsory card scheme—compulsory in the sense that the card would have to be carried by each individual at all times. As I made clear, any scheme that was eventually approved would not entail police officers or other officials stopping people in the street to demand their card. We are not, therefore, consulting on that option.

Instead, we would welcome views on a universal entitlement card. Everyone would register for and be issued with such a card, which would be required for the purpose of gaining access to services or employment. We also consider in the consultation paper the pros and cons of a voluntary card, in respect of which people could choose to opt into the scheme. That would be based primarily on their wish for secure and verifiable identification.

The key issue is the use to which a card might be put, so a genuine consultation exercise is aimed at hearing from the public what services people would like to be linked to a card. We wish to hear from organisations in the public and private sectors about whether they would take advantage of the card to help them with delivering and providing access to their services. We have set out for illustration examples of some areas in which a card might be helpful. In each of them, we demonstrate the cons as well as the pros, to ensure that people understand the downside as well as the gains that can he made.

I have already mentioned the use of a card to help to provide better and more appropriate access to services. It could also act as a convenient travel document and as a proof of age card, and could help to promote new ways of voting.

Crucially, an entitlement card could help us to tackle illegal working. Illegal working undermines the minimum wage and the rights and conditions of the lowest paid. An entitlement card could give businesses and employees a simple, straightforward and verifiable way of establishing the right to work legally. It could thereby assist us in tackling the sub-economy.

Although we have an open mind on how a card scheme could operate, we have set out a possible scheme for comment. Most people already possess some form of photo-id such as a passport or photocard driving licence. Many have already said that they would like fewer cards in their purse or wallet, and some have suggested that a scheme might incorporate both the driving licence and the recently announced passport card. Entitlement cards for those not covered by existing documents would be provided in the form of a non-driving licence card, which would be similar to those issued in many states in the United States. Existing powers to require proof of identity would reflect those used for the purposes of driving and travel.

The consultation paper asks whether existing passport and driving licence checks are sufficiently secure, given the increasing sophistication of fraud. We would welcome views on whether biometric information such as fingerprints or iris images should be recorded. That would ensure that people could not establish multiple or false identities, which allow the personal fraud with which public and private services are bedevilled.

Any scheme will have costs, which we spell out for the different options that are given in the paper. We are not talking about large bids to the Treasury that would displace investment in public services. The entitlement card scheme could be made self-financing by increasing charges for more secure passports and driving licences, discounted over the lifetime of the card, and by charging a lower card fee for those who do not have either a driving licence or a passport.

There is always a danger of bureaucracy in such areas. We spell out that possible downside and illustrate potential ways of dealing with it. However, by building on existing systems and expertise we should be able to reduce the risk and costs inherent in an undertaking of this size. [Interruption.]

Mr. Ronnie Campbell (Blyth Valley)

This is a vote winner for us.

Mr. Blunkett

I am grateful for my hon. Friend's humour, especially given that 38 million people hold a driving licence and 44 million people, including young people, hold a passport. Technological advance is already projecting major change.

As I said earlier, we recognise that there are inevitably real worries about the infringement of personal freedoms and historic concerns as regards the legal requirement to carry a card. The paper sets out the way in which a scheme would comply with the Data Protection Act 1998. The amount of data required and its accessibility or relevance would be determined by Parliament; the use of a chip would he determined by individuals.

I hope that my comments will reassure all hon. Members that we painfully understand the genuine need to protect privacy. However, we are asking the following question: given that to drive a car, move freely in and out of the country, open a bank account or obtain credit, we need to identify ourselves correctly, would it be easier or harder if there was one entitlement card to assist the process?

In addition, each year, thousands of people have their identities stolen by criminals, often without their knowing about it. Bank accounts are raided, and goods and services bought in their name. Identity fraud now amounts to £1.3 billion a year. For good reason, there is genuine concern among the public about that growing criminal activity. A universal entitlement card would be a powerful weapon in the fight against identity fraud. However, it would take time for a card to make its full impact. We are therefore also using the consultation exercise to seek views on several other projects that could provide rapid gains. Today, we are publishing a separate paper on identity fraud, which I have placed in the Library.

I thank my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions for the work that he undertook on the matter when he was Chief Secretary.

No one should fear correct identification. There is nothing to fear from the proper acknowledgement and recognition of our identity. There is everything to fear from wrongful identification, or the acquisition of our identity for fraudulent purposes.

Freedom from intrusion into our private lives by public or private organisations is crucial. Freedom to avoid abuse and ease of access to our identity is an essential part of the consultation process. I commend it to the House.

Mr. Oliver Letwin (West Dorset)

I am grateful to the Home Secretary for his statement and for his courtesy in letting me have an early copy.

If the Home Secretary is asking the country to debate a strictly defined benefit entitlement card, the purpose of which is to prevent fraud, the Conservative party will strongly welcome it. Indeed, my right hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr. Lilley) proposed it when he was Secretary of State for Social Security. He began to implement the mechanism for such a card because he was hugely determined to cut fraud. Ironically, the current Government aborted that implementation.

However, is the item about which the Home Secretary seeks to consult a strictly defined benefit entitlement card? I confess that, having read through the paper and listened to his statement, I am still not clear.

In the first paragraph of the consultative paper, the Home Secretary states: A universal entitlement card scheme would…establish for official purposes a person's identity so that there is one definitive record of an identity which all Government departments can use if they wish". What, if anything, does that opaque and gnomic sentence mean? What does the Home Secretary mean when he suggests that the card is one, which all Government departments can use if they wish"?

Does the Home Secretary recognise the real and widespread scepticism and anxiety engendered by such utterances when they come from a Government and a Department, which, under his stewardship and in the past few months have sought to introduce vast new powers for Departments of State and other public agencies to interrogate aspects of people's lives? Those proposals have been withdrawn only under a hail of parliamentary and public protest.

Does the Home Secretary realise that these opaque utterances are bound to be read in a certain way by a public who have come to understand that the language of liberty is usually far from his lips, and to understand also his intense suspicion of the judiciary and judicial processes? Does he realise that such opaque statements are bound to be worrying when they come from a Government who, in discussing the double jeopardy rule, and advancing the European arrest warrant, have paid scant attention to the significance that most of us in the House still attach to the presumption of innocence in English law?

If these are unreal fears, why is the Home Office in the lead on this matter? Why is a benefit entitlement card the proper pre-occupation of a Department that is not responsible for administering the benefit system? How will an entitlement card that is genuinely an entitlement card improve the criminal justice system for which the right hon. Gentleman's Department is largely responsible? If the police will not be able to demand production of this card—as the Home Secretary's paper and statement suggest—what effect can the card possibly have on street crime, or any other crime apart from fraud?

I fear that neither the Home Secretary's statement nor his paper present to the British public a clear proposition that can foster a rational debate. In place of clarity and definition, we have obscurity and spin. This issue is too important an area of our national life, too central to the protection of society against fraud, and too fundamental to the preservation of our liberties, for us to accept such obscurity and spin. Will the Home Secretary assure the House that in the coming days and weeks he will make it clear what he is actually asking us to debate?

Mr. Blunkett

There appears to be a presumption by the Opposition that if they mention the word "spin", the whole world will believe that someone has been spinning. Although I specifically instructed all those around me not to spin, appeared on no programmes—unlike the right hon. Gentleman—and kept away from saying anything about this over the last few days, I am accused of spin. I will tell the House what I am spinning. I am spinning the right of the British people to decide over the next six months whether they want a sensible way of confirming their own identity. I am putting forward a long-term debate about what is happening in the world around us.

The right hon. Gentleman mentioned the right hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr. Lilley), who consulted only on benefits. His proposals were not linked to the organisation and distribution of identity for driving or for passport purposes; they would therefore have involved the establishment of a wholly separate bureaucracy and technical system, and concentrated only on those in receipt of benefits. I did not mention benefits once this afternoon.

Mr. Eric Forth (Bromley and Chislehurst)

Why not?

Mr. Blunkett

Because benefit fraud is only a tiny part of the problem in the benefit system, whereas identity fraud is a substantial drain on the economy as a whole. The right hon. Member for West Dorset (Mr. Letwin) asked why the Home Office was involved. It is because the Home Office has responsibility for identity fraud, and for organised crime, and because on the streets at this very moment people are committing credit card fraud and automatic teller machine fraud to defraud individuals and businesses of large sums of money. Such people are often linked to criminal gangs involved in people smuggling. I have responsibility for people smuggling, illegal working and ensuring that people do not get into the country clandestinely.

That is why the Home Office is in charge of this policy—[Interruption.] If Opposition Members were not so ignorant as to talk while I am speaking, they might learn a thing or two, such as why we need to consider this measure in the long term. It is because other developed countries are considering how to use biometrics to secure against fraud and multiple identity replication; because in France, the level of credit card fraud is one sixth the level in this country, as a result of the technology used there; and because the United States is considering new ways of accrediting identification, and, if we do not match them, it will reintroduce visas for UK citizens visiting the US. It is also because, as part of the Schengen information system, which some parties in the House support, the rest of the European Union will be introducing new biometric recognition for identification. If we are left behind, if we do not have a debate, and if, over the next two years, the House is not prepared to decide which way we will go, not only will we be left behind, but organised fraudsters across the world will know one thing: we will be the weakest link.

Mr. Chris Mullin (Sunderland, South)

I welcome the Home Secretary's assurance that there will be no compulsion, and acknowledge that there are some obvious benefits. May I ask my right hon. Friend, first, whether he accepts that it is for those who are in favour of the card to make out the case for it, not the other way round? Secondly, will he confirm that the card will be little or no use in combating terrorism? Thirdly, given the unhappy history—I put this as gently as I can—of Government information technology projects, are we not entitled to be sceptical about some of the claims made for the card?

Mr. Blunkett

I can say yes to all three. Yes, I agree that those who wish to develop an alternative and simpler system to the multiplicity of cards must make the case. Yes, I agree that it is important to recognise the past failures of Government technology systems, which is why the massive update of the UK Passport Service and now of the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency currently taking place should take account of any potential for the future. Yes, I accept that it is important that we do not pretend that an entitlement card would be an overwhelming factor in combating international terrorism. That is precisely what I said three times on the radio within a fortnight of 11 September, and I reiterated it this afternoon.

Simon Hughes (Southwark, North and Bermondsey)

The Liberal Democrats are happy to have a consultation. We have had consultations in our party over many years and have always come to the view that, on balance, such cards are a very bad idea. Does the Home Secretary accept that although superficially the proposal is potentially a good idea and popular, the more one considers the issues, the more complex it becomes and the more problems arise?

Does the right hon. Gentleman understand the scepticism and suspicion that many, including the Liberal Democrats, will feel arising from the fact that the Government do not have a record—to put it gently—over the past five years of increasing the liberty of the subject, as against the state? The Home Office in particular has a record of taking liberties and increasing the powers of the state. The Government have said that they are so far neutral on the issue. Will the Home Secretary do us the courtesy of telling us what his personal position is? From all that I have heard him say, it appears that he has a strong presumption in favour the proposal. It would be helpful if he shared that with the House.

Those of us who do not have a conspiracy view may none the less agree with the Chairman of the Select Committee on Home Affairs, the hon. Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. Mullin), that of all the Departments of Government, the Home Office has been most susceptible to cock-up over the years. What guarantees are there that information given into a system run by the Home Office will not be misused or transferred without the individual's consent?

If the card is voluntary, how will it stop illegal working?

Mr. Tony Banks (West Ham)

How can we stop you?

Simon Hughes

On this issue, our party will not be stopped easily. That is the answer to the hon. Member for West Ham (Mr. Banks). If the card is compulsory, like the one that the French have had, how has it been so unsuccessful at stopping illegal working in France, where huge numbers of people work illegally, even though under the system there, they must have cards and produce them? In relation to the police, surely the problem in Britain is not that the police, when they catch people, cannot identify them, but that they cannot catch them in the first place.

Lastly, will not the proposal be another way of dividing our society? Those who are less well off will have to have the cards. It will be the only way that they can use the social security system, the national health service and other public services. Those who are well off, who do not receive benefits, who do not have to use the NHS and who opt for private education will not have to have these cards. For them it will be an optional extra and available only if they want one. Is not that the real indictment? This is a system for the unfortunate many, and the elite few will be able to be comfortably exempt from it.

Mr. Blunkett

I am disappointed, because this is degenerating into a contest with intellectual pygmies. I did the hon. Gentleman and the right hon. Member for West Dorset (Mr. Letwin) the courtesy of ensuring that they had the document first thing today—not an hour or two ago. The hon. Gentleman will therefore have read it, and will know that, far from the worst-off being penalised, there is a presumption that those who travel abroad and own and run a car, which is well over 40 million people, will automatically pick up the card, because they will need it to show that they are able and have permission to drive a car or are free to travel abroad.

The reason why I am so annoyed with the hon. Gentleman is that the Liberal Democrats are totally committed to the Schengen system. They want us to join it.

Simon Hughes

We do not.

Mr. Blunkett

I am glad that we have clarified that. There is logic in not wanting to belong to the Schengen information system if the Liberal Democrats do not want to share information on the ability to travel. A difficulty will occur with travel to the United States if we do not align what we are doing with the changes that are taking place around us.

The French do not pick up their illegal workers because they have what is called tolerated illegal presence. Back in February, we spent a whole day debating that at the behest of the shadow Home Secretary. I had hoped that the spokesman for the Liberal Democrats, the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey (Simon Hughes), had picked up on that. I made it clear that an entitlement card would have to be used if we are to enforce section 8 of the Asylum and Immigration Act 1996, which is about stopping illegal working but without the means to do so. That is why the CBI welcomes this consultation. It knows, even if the hon. Gentleman does not, that this will be a valuable card in our pack in dealing with an activity that exploits individuals and defrauds the nation.

Mr. George Howarth (Knowsley, North and Sefton, East)

I welcome my right hon. Friend's statement. In view of the potential benefits for the criminal justice system and for policing, I urge him not entirely to close his mind to the possibility of a compulsory scheme. May I make a suggestion put to me by a constituent? Will my right hon. Friend talk to colleagues in the Department of Health to see whether people could voluntarily include information about medical conditions, such as epilepsy or diabetes, that could be accessed by ambulance crews, which would be helpful?

Mr. Blunkett

I must disappoint my hon. Friend on the first point. It is not the Government's intention to go down the road of compulsion to carry. I agree that, should Parliament determine in the future that we move to a smart card, it would be possible for individuals to choose what went into the chip. It would not be for Government to decide, whatever has been said this afternoon, and whatever sneers have been made. Individuals could decide to have additional information on the chip to be used in certain circumstances.

I responded to my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. Mullin) by acknowledging that the history on technology has been poor. That is why we are proposing to go through the passports system and the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency. I do not accept that my Department, now or in the past, has deliberately passed people's information to other agencies or has undermined their freedom. If Members have information to the contrary, they should bring it forward, rather than make such allegations.

Mr. Douglas Hogg (Sleaford and North Hykeham)

May I address that part of the concept which implied that the production of the entitlement card will be a necessary precondition to services, benefits and perhaps work? Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that if we are to go down that road, it is essential that in the event of a genuine holder losing a card, there should be a rapid and effective way of verifying the possession of such a card in the past? If that is not the case, genuine cardholders will be deprived of their ability to obtain goods, services, benefits and perhaps work. Why should we accept that the technology, which so far the Government have been minded to apply in the case of passports, will produce such a rapid and effective solution?

Mr. Blunkett

Because the United Kingdom Passport Service now turns applications around in 24 hours. I am proud that we have made considerable progress on this front. We need to be able to replicate what happens with lost credit cards—people have their cards cancelled and a new dated reissue provided very quickly. That is what is intended—[Interruption.] However, on a lighter note, my hon. Friends suggest that I should give the right hon. and learned Gentleman a card. We all have a card so that we can get in and out of the House.

David Winnick (Walsall, North)

Is my right hon. Friend aware that despite what he has said, there is a real fear among many people that the card would become compulsory and antagonise many law-abiding people, as happened in the immediate post-war years? It is interesting that the term "entitlement" rather than "identity" card is used, because the latter is such a discredited term.

Is my right hon. Friend also aware that there is considerable doubt whether any card such as he has described would deal effectively with criminality, hence the reason why there are many objections? Finally, may I say to him in all friendliness that the sooner this idea is buried as quickly and decently as possible, the better?

Mr. Blunkett

I am always pleased to have friendly advice from behind me. We will see what the British people decide—that is why we are providing a six-month consultation period, which is what will matter. We are not back in 1952; we are not in the business of pretending that somehow Parliament will be taken over by those who will take away people's liberty. One reason why Governments who respond, who listen and who sometimes acknowledge that they have made mistakes should be applauded rather than ridiculed is that the British people can get rid of us.

Mr. Peter Lilley (Hitchin and Harpenden)

Is the Home Secretary aware that when the Labour Government in Australia consulted on a similar measure, it was, as I am sure this will be initially, extremely popular? However, as the argument progressed and the implications became increasingly apparent, opposition grew until some 90 per cent. of the population of Australia were opposed to the idea of an identity card, and it contributed to the fall of the Australian Government—an outcome that I wish to see here. Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us how long it will be before this proposal joins those for e-mail snoopers and asylum vouchers in the graveyard for illiberal measures that the Government have introduced?

Mr. Blunkett

I loved the right hon. Gentleman's concluding words. After all, we are coming up to the 10th anniversary of his "little list". If anybody should give us lectures about liberality, it is certainly not the right hon. Gentleman.

I met the leader of the Australian Opposition yesterday and talked to him about the card. I said that there was a great deal to learn from the Australian experience, and he said that it was quite likely that the present Government, whose outlook is very close to the right hon. Gentleman's heart, might well seek to reintroduce it.

Fiona Mactaggart (Slough)

I welcome the Home Secretary's assurance that people might be able to choose what information was put on the cards. Does he accept, however, that while some of us might see a role for a card that proved identity and did no more, there is deep anxiety about the privacy implications of data sharing and the fact that people would carry data around with them on the cards? Will he ensure that that issue is highlighted during consultation?

Mr. Blunkett

Yes, and in fact it is highlighted in the consultation paper. This is to do with smart card technology; it is nothing to do with biometrics or the avoidance of forgery. We are talking about how the chip can be used and the way in which additional data can be put on it. Scotland has an interchange with the births and deaths register, and we, too, have an interchange for specific purposes with the DVLA, which has signed a contract relating to cross-checks between those who have registered vehicles and those who have taken out licences to drive them. I think that even my most vehement critic would consider that acceptable. What is not acceptable is the transfer of data that are on a chip for specific purposes to other agencies, and we have made it clear this afternoon that we are not in that business.

Mr. Andrew MacKay (Bracknell)

May I put it to the Home Secretary that his statement has hardly helped the case of those of us who are broadly in favour of the introduction of an identity card at some time? I suggest that the introduction of a benefit entitlement card would be the best move initially. My constituents see no reason why that should not be done, and feel that it would be feared only by those trying to defraud us.

Mr. Blunkett

But if it is good enough for benefit recipients, it is good enough for all of us. As I said earlier, in tackling benefit fraud we must recognise the existence of a range of organised fraudulent activities on an unprecedented scale that could not have been envisaged 10 years ago. Organised gangs are moving in on credit card and smart card technology with the aim of defrauding us all. That was why it was thought appropriate to discuss which services should be accessible by card and how we should protect ourselves against fraud.

I am sorry if I have not made the case terribly well. I would welcome the right hon. Gentleman's assistance during the next six months.

Mr. Tam Dalyell (Linlithgow)

Is the issue of identity cards devolved? I have an awful suspicion that many Members of the Scottish Parliament will jump up and down and say that it is a matter for them rather than for the House of Commons.

What would the Home Secretary say to the senior, and thoughtful, Scottish police officer who, when I said I was broadly in favour of identity cards, replied "Hang on a moment. Identity cards might make the job of the police not less but more difficult, because of assumptions about those holding such cards"? I repeat, is this a devolved issue?

Mr. Blunkett

I should be happy to hear from the individual to whom my hon. Friend spoke, because the Association of Chief Police Officers, the Police Superintendents Association and the Police Federation are all in favour and welcome the debate—and, in varying guises, they cover Scotland as well.

I look forward to seeing everyone jump up and down, but also to a sensible and rational debate. As I said a moment ago, the Scottish Executive have moved further than we have in England, in that the facility is devolved in terms of administration but not in terms of policy.

Sir Teddy Taylor (Rochford and Southend, East)

I would not question the Home Secretary's sincerity in any way, but will he promise to study over the next six months the experience of nearly every other European country in which either voluntary or compulsory identity cards have been introduced? In those countries expectations have not been realised, but enormous cost has been incurred. In particular, will the Home Secretary give us some idea of the anticipated cost? Will he also tell us how he expects to deal with the enormous problem, as it has been elsewhere, of forged and lost cards—5 million were lost when we last used them here—and with the problems posed for elderly people having to obtain cards?

Mr. Blunkett

The hon. Gentleman asks three questions. On his first, I am happy to do as he asks, including studying the Swedes' move towards the use of such a card, having experienced a more informal system. I agree that forgery is an issue, which is why the question of biometrics is so important. It is virtually impossible—nothing is entirely impossible—to forge the iris, which is why people across the world are moving towards that system. I accept that massive claims for cards have been made that have not been reaped, but I have not made such claims, including ruling out their substantial contribution to countering terrorism.

We estimate that a plastic card would cost an additional £10, and a smart card some £14 to £15, which includes the interchange at the point of swipe. We also estimate that, over a 13-year period—the discount period in terms of set-up and replacement costs—putting through some 67.5 million cards would cost £1.5 billion. The £10 to £15 charge is predicated on that 13-year discount.

Dr. Nick Palmer (Broxtowe)

My right hon. Friend is aware that I have pursued this issue for some months. There was much debate about the information that could be held on the card, and I welcome point 6.12 of the consultation paper, which suggests that it is possible to have a basic card just for identification purposes. Does he accept the view of many in the information technology industry that the way forward is indeed a basic identification card that gives access to a wide variety of databases of the individual's choice? Does he also accept that although he—like me—is attracted to the proposals, it would be sensible to have a voluntary pilot phase, so that the scheme can be shaken down before we establish full national coverage?

Mr. Blunkett

I accept all those points, including the latter one. It is perfectly feasible, as people have their driving licence or passport renewed at a pilot stage, to experiment. If we decide to go ahead, it would be sensible to proceed on that basis.

I did not answer the earlier question about my predilection. I do have a predilection for arguing that we should seriously consider the proposal, but like most Government Members I would not stake the Government's future on it.

Annabelle Ewing (Perth)

The SNP-Plaid Cymru group has serious concerns about the proposal. If everyone will be required to register for a card, surely that makes having a card—as opposed merely to carrying one physically—compulsory in anyone's language. Does the Home Secretary agree that in legislating for Scotland on this clearly devolved matter, Westminster is once again acting in breach of the Scotland Act 1998?

Mr. Blunkett

I sincerely hope that we can lift the debate a little above that level. There is a requirement to register for the census—in fact, one can be fined for not doing so. The issuing of a card does not force anyone to use it, although in terms of drivers or passport users, or if services—whether public or private—required some proof of identity before expenditure was laid out, without proof of identity and therefore entitlement to do it I doubt whether non-use of it would last very long. I am not sure that this is an issue specifically for Scotland, England, Wales or Northern Ireland; it is an issue wherever one lives. Accent and geographical location do not change the issue one iota.

Mr. Tony Banks (West Ham)

I entirely support my right hon. Friend's proposal for entitlement cards and the associated consultation process, and I should like to think that we can have a full consultation process on compulsory ID cards for all our citizens. Society has become less honest and more violent, and the issue is one on which I have changed my mind. When circumstances change, it is right that we change our policies and perhaps our minds. Will he tell the House whether his mind is still open on the matter of compulsory ID cards for all our citizens?

Mr. Blunkett

I said in February, and I repeat today, that the Government are not in favour of compelling people to carry the card with them, which has historic connotations. The consultation will be about the development of the sensible use of the card. In this country, we have got used to adversarial politics on a grand scale on every issue—as we saw earlier this afternoon—and if one launches a consultation and asks people to respond, teeth are bared and the knives come out immediately. I genuinely think that we should ask the British people and see what they think.

Mr. Nick Gibb (Bognor Regis and Littlehampton)

The Home Secretary will he aware that the asylum seekers entitlement card contains 30 different records, including photographs, fingerprints, employment status and number of child dependants. He will also be aware that the information on the card can be read by officials using a quick-check reader, but the details cannot be read by the holder of the card. In his statement, he gave the example of passports, but all the information on a passport can be read by the holder, despite the fact that it can be passed through a quick-check reader at passport control.

Can the Home Secretary assure the House that if identity cards are to be introduced, individuals will have full and easy access to the information contained on their own cards? What personal information will be contained on a card of the type for which he has a predilection?

Mr. Blunkett

I indicated that the information would be that sought already for driving licences and passports. It is correct that people should know what is on the card, either because they have submitted it or it has been submitted in their name, and they should have access to it. Under the Data Protection Act 1998, the Data Protection Registrar would need to be assured that that was the case.

Mr. Mark Todd (South Derbyshire)

While I welcome the consultation, I hope that it will focus substantially on some of the practical issues, which include, first, whether it will yield benefits to our citizens and, secondly—and my question for my right hon. Friend—whether it can be instituted within a reasonable time scale and at a sensible cost. He gave the example of the Passport Service and its markedly improved performance. That was a project with a single aim, but the new scheme would have several different purposes. One can imagine the complexities of such a project, especially when thrust into the hands of the British civil service.

Mr. Blunkett

I think that I have conceded defeat on the last point three times already, but I will concede it again. It is difficult for the Government to implement a complex scheme, which is why it would need to be based on the existing technology developments that have been put in place by the DVLA and UKPS. I accept entirely that the British people will have to feel that it will be of value to them in their day-to-day lives to have a single card that they can use for identification that will be accepted by all the agencies, including the private agencies that currently demand that we show such identification.

We should have a manageable time scale. Discounting the next two or three years—because if we decided to go ahead we would have to legislate—it would take five or possibly seven years to get a fully fledged scheme up and running. That is why I indicated earlier that we were trying to look forward and see where the world would be in 10 years' time and whether we would be alongside it or way behind.

Norman Baker (Lewes)

Does the Home Secretary accept that there are dangers as well as advantages from the accumulation of data on such a card? In particular, does he accept that it is right in principle that if an element of the state wishes to have access to information about an individual, that should be narrowly defined? However, access to information on the card will be wide access. He is right to say that he wishes to tackle identity fraud, which is a big problem, but if someone were to gain access to such a card, he would gain access to a range of information about an individual—even if he could not use it directly because of the biometric measures that are proposed—that at the moment would have to be pieced together.

Mr. Blunkett

The latter point applies when people have sophisticated chips on smart cards; it is nothing to do with biometrics, as I said earlier. Biometrics are about whether the card can be forged and therefore whether the identity is correct. As I said earlier, no one has anything to fear from being correctly identified, unless he or she is a fraudster who is seeking deliberately to deceive those delivering a service or the state as a whole.

I do not disagree with the points made. Of course, it would be wrong for people to gain access to information for other purposes, which is why I have stressed that I and the Government envisage in the consultation paper that the information already sought and held would be precisely that which would be needed to operate such a card.

Martin Linton (Battersea)

Does my right hon. Friend agree that entitlement cards will not only help in checking people's entitlement to public services and in combating fraud, but assist asylum seekers and others who have recently entered this country to establish their right to public services, which can often be very difficult at the moment? Does he accept that the idea of consulting on entitlement cards was unanimously suggested last year by the Home Affairs Committee, on which hon. Members from all three parties serve, including my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, North (David Winnick), who chaired the meeting at which that was suggested; the hon. Member for Colchester (Bob Russell), who is a Liberal Democrat; and the hon. Member for Woking (Mr. Malins), who speaks on asylum for the Opposition?

Mr. Blunkett

One of the privileges of politics and democracy is that people have the right to change their mind, as I discovered a couple of weeks ago, so we are all in this boat together. I am very happy to welcome new converts to the fold if they are at least prepared to consult on the issue, and I appeal to those who have changed their minds the other way that at least thinking about it would be a good idea. I agree that it would be a very positive way to welcome and embrace people's right to gain access to services, to develop their citizenship and to be part of the mutuality that we share.

Dr. Julian Lewis (New Forest, East)

Does the Home Secretary accept that if he were coming to the House at the height of a major terrorist campaign and recommending a compulsory identity card for the security of the community, his proposal would be seriously considered on both sides of the House? However, he is now trying to sell as a convenience card something that seeks to combine the functions of several separate existing cards but may well incorporate technology that would allow an indefinite number of functions to be added in future. Does he not realise that, in doubting his proposals, we face the old problem of capability versus intentions? He has stated his honourable intentions, but surely he should realise that people are worried about the capability of what he proposes to be indefinitely extended?

Mr. Blunkett

I do not even take offence at the idea of impugning my intentions; I simply say that there is much greater security in ensuring that Parliament's will is enforced under my proposals than there is in the smart card technology that already exists and is used by private enterprise. There is a two-way street in relation to privacy and avoiding intrusion, and it does not simply depend on protection from the state.

The hon. Gentleman's first question was about why I did not introduce such a proposal in the aftermath of the events of 11 September. I reject the suggestion that we would have been able to deal with such a proposal intelligently and thoughtfully. It would have been seen, quite rightly, as a railroad and as something introduced on the back of a terrible tragedy, and it would have been irrational. That is why I rejected such a notion on the "Today" programme three times within a fortnight of 11 September. We must consider the issue coldly in the light of day—either it is worth having in 10, 15 or 20 years' time, or it is not worth having at all.

Shona McIsaac (Cleethorpes)

Is my right hon. Friend aware that a television poll revealed this lunchtime that 84 per cent. of people have no problem whatever with the concept of identity cards? Does he think that that is because we all have an array of cards that identify us in our purses and pockets? We have cash cards, credit cards and store cards that track our shopping habits and allow us to have coupons that tie in with those shopping habits. All hon. Members have passes to come in and out of the House and record our movements around the House. Frankly, I do not understand why people fear entitlement cards.

Mr. Blunkett

My hon. Friend will be pleased to hear that I agree. I have four cards in my possession—

Shona McIsaac

I have 17.

Mr. Blunkett

My hon. Friend has an extremely heavy purse or handbag, and I shall avoid being handbagged by it.

Mr. John Wilkinson (Ruislip-Northwood)

Having just completed a report for the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe on clandestine migration, may I warmly applaud the objective of the Home Secretary but regret his pusillanimity in not seeing his consultative proposals through to their logical conclusion? Would not any law-abiding person be perfectly happy to carry an identity card or an entitlement card if doing so will improve the likelihood that only those people who are entitled to work do so and only those who are entitled to be in Britain are in Britain, and if doing so will diminish the likelihood of individuals carrying out terrorist offences or impersonations? If, in the consultation, the public express the desire for the compulsory carriage of such cards, cannot the Home Secretary accede to their wish?

Mr. Blunkett

I welcome very much the spirit of the hon. Gentleman's remarks and, having examined the issues, I respect greatly his understanding of them. I shall resist the temptation to be overwhelmed by the feeling of the British people wanting to have to carry them. That is not least because the reason for the decision on the card in 1952, other than the tragic refusal of the Labour Government to get rid of rationing in time and the link that was made in people's minds, was a cause celebre court case in relation to someone who had left their card at home. If we go ahead, I have every intention of carrying my card. I do not want to be accused of breaking the law, however, if I have left it in the wrong jacket.

David Cairns (Greenock and Inverclyde)

Given that the issuing of passports, driving licences, national insurance numbers, Home Office reference numbers and entitlement to benefit are all administered on a UK-wide basis, does my right hon. Friend accept that it would be utterly illogical and perverse to deal with this matter on anything other than a UK-wide basis? May I clarify a technical point? Is my right hon. Friend saying that he does not envisage any new technology being involved, but that existing tried-and-tested technology will be used? If so, that will go some way to allay the fears of those of us who, although we have no civil libertarian objections, are very concerned about the ability to advance from a standing start to 44 million or 60 million cards in a very short period.

Mr. Blunkett

We accept fully in the document that we could not proceed from a standing start, and that identity cards would have to be introduced on the back of the issuing of the photocard driving licence and photocard passport, which are both now being introduced. Additional technology would be necessary to expand the potential for the development of the card. We estimate the cost of that to be £107 million. Again, that is part of the document. I accept entirely the first part of my hon. Friend's question. I suggest to him, however—I am sure that he will articulate this north of the border—that were we able to introduce a card that dealt substantially with organised fraud, and were Scotland not to have such a card, Scotland would become an absolute haven for fraudsters. Not even the Scottish National party would want that.

Mr. Harry Barnes (North-East Derbyshire)

My right hon. Friend said in his statement that it would be possible to use the identity card in connection with new voting methods. Is he aware that it could he used in connection with the established, traditional and very good voting methods that already exist in this country? It would aid considerably electoral registration as, despite rolling electoral registration, probably 1 million or more people are still missing from electoral registers who could be placed on them using identity card techniques. It could also be used as a voter identity card. A move in that direction has been made in Northern Ireland, but a United Kingdom identity card provision for voting would probably be a great advance in stopping fraud, not just in Northern Ireland but on a wider basis.

Mr. Blunkett

I congratulate my hon. Friend on his long campaign on this important issue. I represent a constituency that has more than 10 per cent. under-registration, so I also feel strongly about this issue. He is entirely right to want to avoid fraudulent voting, and registering to vote has the real potential to increase the right to vote.