§ Norman BakerI beg to move amendment No. 161, in page 39, line 28, at end insert—
'except that it shall not be an offence to disclose any information or thing concerning transport routes, frequency of journeys, or volume or type of material transported.'.
The ChairmanWith this it will be convenient to discuss amendment No. 159, in page 39, line 34, at end insert—
'(2A) In proceedings for an offence under this section it is a defence for the accused to show that the public interest in disclosure of the information relating to the transportation of nuclear material outweighed the public interest in not prejudicing the security of that material.'.
§ Norman BakerMay I thank you, Sir Alan, for the efficient way in which you have conducted this evening's business, which has allowed us to get to this amendment?
My hon. Friends and I have concerns about the clause, which we believe is too widely drawn. The Government are committed to a Freedom of Information Act, which they have now delayed until 2005, but these provisions move in exactly the opposite direction.
738 The Government are on to a good thing when they identify the need to make sure that nuclear installations are safe—nobody would disagree with that. Unfortunately, however, they have over-egged the pudding yet again by drawing the clause far too widely. That makes it difficult for legitimate political discussion about the nuclear industry to take place. We are concerned that the clause would prevent the release of information about the number and safety of nuclear movements, which take place by air and, in their thousands, by rail and road. It is important that people understand the scale of those movements and the danger of accidents—
§ It being Eight o'clock, THE CHAIRMAN, pursuant to Orders [19 and 21 November], put forthwith the Question necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that hour.
§ Motion made, and Question put, That clauses 79 to 87 stand part of the Bill:—
§ The Committee divided: Ayes 334, Noes 55.
741| Division No. 81] | [8 pm |
| AYES | |
| Abbott, Ms Diane | Chaytor, David |
| Adams, Mrs Irene (Paisley N) | Clark, Mrs Helen (Peterborough) |
| Ainsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE) | Clark, Dr Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands) |
| Allen, Graham | |
| Anderson, Rt Hon Donald (Swansea E) | Clark, Paul (Gillingham) |
| Clarke, Rt Hon Tom (Coatbridge) | |
| Anderson, Janet (Rossendale) | Clarke, Tony (Northampton S) |
| Armstrong, Rt Hon Ms Hilary | Clelland, David |
| Atherton, Ms Candy | Coaker, Vernon |
| Atkins, Charlotte | Coffey, Ms Ann |
| Austin, John | Cohen, Harry |
| Bailey, Adrian | Coleman, Iain |
| Baird, Vera | Cook, Frank (Stockton N) |
| Banks, Tony | Cook, Rt Hon Robin (Livingston) |
| Barnes, Harry | Corston, Jean |
| Barron, Kevin | Cousins, Jim |
| Beard, Nigel | Cox, Tom |
| Beckett, Rt Hon Margaret | Cranston, Ross |
| Begg, Miss Anne | Crausby, David |
| Benn, Hilary | Cruddas, Jon |
| Benton, Joe | Cryer, John (Hornchurch) |
| Berry, Roger | Cummings, John |
| Best, Harold | Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try S) |
| Betts, Clive | Cunningham, Tony (Workington) |
| Blackman, Liz | Curtis-Thomas, Mrs Claire |
| Blizzard, Bob | Dalyell, Tam |
| Blunkett, Rt Hon David | Darling, Rt Hon Alistair |
| Borrow, David | Davey, Valerie (Bristol W) |
| Bradley, Rt Hon Keith (Withington) | Davidson, Ian |
| Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin) | Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli) |
| Bradshaw, Ben | Davies, Geraint (Croydon C) |
| Brennan, Kevin | Dean, Mrs Janet |
| Brown, Russell (Dumfries) | Denham, Rt Hon John |
| Browne, Desmond | Dhanda, Parmjit |
| Bryant, Chris | Dismore, Andrew |
| Buck, Ms Karen | Dobson, Rt Hon Frank |
| Burden, Richard | Dodds, Nigel |
| Burnham, Andy | Donohoe, Brian H |
| Byers, Rt Hon Stephen | Doran, Frank |
| Caborn, Rt Hon Richard | Dowd, Jim |
| Cairns, David | Drew, David |
| Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth) | Drown, Ms Julia |
| Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge) | Eagle, Angela (Wallasey) |
| Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V) | Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston) |
| Caplin, Ivor | Edwards, Huw |
| Caton, Martin | Efford, Clive |
| Cawsey, Ian | Ellman, Mrs Louise |
| Challen, Colin | Farrelly, Paul |
| Chapman, Ben (Wirral S) | Field, Rt Hon Frank (Birkenhead) |
| Fisher, Mark | Knight, Jim (S Dorset) |
| Fitzpatrick, Jim | Kumar, Dr Ashok |
| Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna | Ladyman, Dr Stephen |
| Flint Caroline | Lammy, David |
| Flynn, Paul | Lawrence, Mrs Jackie |
| Foster, Fit Hon Derek | Laxton, Bob |
| Foster, Michael (Worcester) | Lazarowicz, Mark |
| Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings) | Lepper, David |
| Francis, Dr Hywel | Leslie, Christopher |
| Gapes, Mike | Levitt, Tom |
| Gardiner, Barry | Lewis, Ivan (Bury S) |
| George, Rt Hon Bruce (Walsall S) | Lewis, Terry (Worsley) |
| Gerrard, Neil | Liddell, Rt Hon Mrs Helen |
| Gibson, Dr Ian | Linton, Martin |
| Gilroy, Linda | Lloyd, Tony |
| Godsiff, Roger | Love, Andrew |
| Goggins, Paul | Luke, Iain |
| Griffiths, Jane (Reading E) | Lyons, John |
| Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S) | McAvoy, Thomas |
| Griffiths, Win (Bridgend) | McCabe, Stephen |
| Grogan, John | McCartney, Rt Hon Ian |
| Hain, Rt Hon Peter | McDonagh, Siobhain |
| Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale) | MacDonald, Calum |
| Hall, Patrick (Bedford) | MacDougall, John |
| Hamilton, David (Midlothian) | McGuire, Mrs Anne |
| Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE) | McIsaac, Shona |
| Hanson, David | McKechin, Ann |
| Harman, Rt Hon Ms Harriet | McKenna, Rosemary |
| Havard, Dai | Mackinlay, Andrew |
| Healey, John | McNulty, Tony |
| Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N) | Mactaggart, Fiona |
| Henderson, Ivan (Harwich) | McWalter, Tony |
| Hepburn, Stephen | McWilliam, John |
| Heppell, John | Mahmood, Khalid |
| Hermon, Lady | Mallaber, Judy |
| Hesford, Stephen | Mandelson, Rt Hon Peter |
| Heyes, David | Mann, John |
| Hill, Keith | Marris, Rob |
| Hodge, Margaret | Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S) |
| Hope, Phil | Marshall, David (Shettleston) |
| Hopkins, Kelvin | Martlew, Eric |
| Howarth, Rt Hon Alan (Newport E) | Meacher, Rt Hon Michael |
| Hoyle, Lindsay | Merron, Gillian |
| Hughes, Beverley (Stretford) | Michael, Rt Hon Alun |
| Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N) | Milburn, Rt Hon Alan |
| Humble, Mrs Joan | Miliband, David |
| Hurst Alan | Miller, Andrew |
| Hutton, Rt Hon John | Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby) |
| Iddon, Dr Brian | Moffatt, Laura |
| Illsley, Eric | Moonie, Dr Lewis |
| Ingram, Rt Hon Adam | Moran, Margaret |
| Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead) | Morris, Rt Hon Estelle |
| Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough) | Mountford, Kali |
| Jamieson, David | Mullin, Chris |
| Jenkins, Brian | Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck) |
| Johnson, Alan (Hull W & Hessle) | Murphy, Jim (Eastwood) |
| Jones, Helen (Warrington N) | Murphy, Rt Hon Paul (Torfaen) |
| Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C) | Naysmith, Dr Doug |
| Jones, Kevan (N Durham) | O'Brien, Bill (Normanton) |
| Jones, Lynne (Selly Oak) | O'Hara, Edward |
| Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S) | Olner, Bill |
| Jowell, Rt Hon Tessa | O'Neill, Martin |
| Joyce, Eric | Organ, Diana |
| Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald | Osborne, Sandra (Ayr) |
| Keeble, Ms Sally | Owen, Albert |
| Keen, Alan (Feltham & Heston) | Paisley, Rev Ian |
| Keen, Ann (Brentford & Isleworth) | Palmer, Dr Nick |
| Kelly, Ruth | Pearson, Ian |
| Kemp, Fraser | Perham, Linda |
| Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree) | Picking, Anne |
| Kidney, David | Pickthall, Colin |
| King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth) | Pike, Peter |
| Plaskitt, James | Stewart, David (Inverness E) |
| Pond, Chris | Stewart, Ian (Eccles) |
| Pound, Stephen | Stinchcombe, Paul |
| Powell, Sir Raymond | Stoate, Dr Howard |
| Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E) | Strang, Rt Hon Dr Gavin |
| Prentice, Gordon (Pendle) | Straw, Rt Hon Jack |
| Primarolo, Dawn | Stringer, Graham |
| Prosser, Gwyn | Stuart, Ms Gisela |
| Purchase, Ken | Tami, Mark |
| Purnell, James | Taylor, Ms Dari (Stockton S) |
| Quin, Rt Hon Joyce | Taylor, David (NW Leics) |
| Quinn, Lawrie | Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W) |
| Rammell, Bill | Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W) |
| Rapson, Syd | Timms, Stephen |
| Raynsford, Rt Hon Nick | Tipping, Paddy |
| Reed, Andy (Loughborough) | Todd, Mark |
| Reid, Rt Hon Dr John (Hamilton N) | Touhig, Don |
| Robertson, John (Glasgow Anniesland) | Trickett, Jon |
| Truswell, Paul | |
| Robinson, Mrs Iris (Strangford) | Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE) |
| Roche, Mrs Barbara | Turner, Dr Desmond (Kemptown) |
| Rooney, Terry | Twigg, Derek (Halton) |
| Ross, Ernie | Twigg, Stephen (Enfield) |
| Roy, Frank | Vis, Dr Rudi |
| Ruane, Chris | Walley, Ms Joan |
| Ruddock, Joan | Ward, Ms Claire |
| Russell, Ms Christine (Chester) | Wareing, Robert N |
| Ryan, Joan | Watson, Tom |
| Salter, Martin | Watts, David |
| Sarwar, Mohammad | White, Brian |
| Savidge, Malcolm | Whitehead, Dr Alan |
| Sawford, Phil | Wicks, Malcolm |
| Shaw, Jonathan | Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W) |
| Sheerman, Barry | |
| Sheridan, Jim | Williams, Mrs Betty (Conwy) |
| Shipley, Ms Debra | Wills, Michael |
| Simon, Siôn | Wilson, Brian |
| Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S) | Winnick, David |
| Skinner, Dennis | Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C) |
| Smith, Angela (Basildon) | Wood, Mike |
| Smith, Geraldine (Morecambe) | Woodward, Shaun |
| Smith, Jacqui (Redditch) | Wray, James |
| Smith, John (Glamorgan) | Wright, Anthony D (Gt Yarmouth) |
| Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent) | Wright, David (Telford) |
| Southworth, Helen | Wright, Tony (Cannock) |
| Spellar, Rt Hon John | Wyatt, Derek |
| Squire, Rachel | |
| Starkey, Dr Phyllis | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Steinberg, Gerry | Mr. Phil Woolas and |
| Stevenson, George | Mr. Nick Ainger. |
| NOES | |
| Allan, Richard | Harris, Dr Evan (Oxford W) |
| Baker, Norman | Harvey, Nick |
| Barrett, John | Heath, David |
| Beith, Rt Hon A J | Holmes, Paul |
| Bennett, Andrew | Hughes, Simon (Southwark N) |
| Brake, Tom | Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham) |
| Breed, Colin | Keetch, Paul |
| Brooke, Mrs Annette L | Kennedy, Rt Hon Charles (Ross Skye & Inverness W) |
| Burnett, John | |
| Cable, Dr Vincent | Kirkwood, Archy |
| Calton, Mrs Patsy | Lamb, Norman |
| Campbell, Rt Hon Menzies (NE Fife) | Laws, David |
| Llwyd, Elfyn | |
| Carmichael, Alistair | Moore, Michael |
| Chidgey, David | Oaten, Mark |
| Corbyn, Jeremy | Price, Adam |
| Cotter, Brian | Pugh, Dr John |
| Davey, Edward (Kingston) | Reid, Alan (Argyll & Bute) |
| Ewing, Annabelle | Rendel, David |
| Foster, Don (Bath) | Russell, Bob (Colchester) |
| Galloway, George | Sanders, Adrian |
| George, Andrew (St Ives) | Shepherd, Richard |
| Green, Matthew (Ludlow) | Spink, Bob |
| Hancock, Mike | Stunell, Andrew |
| Taylor, Matthew (Truro) | Williams, Roger (Brecon) |
| Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion) | Willis, Phil |
| Tonge, Dr Jenny | Younger-Ross, Richard |
| Tyler, Paul | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Webb, Steve | Sir Robert Smith and |
| Williams, Hywel (Caernarfon) | John Thurso. |
§ Question accordingly agreed to.
§ Clauses 79 to 87 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
§ The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Sylvia Heal)I remind all hon. Members that under the programme agreed by the House, the Bill's Report stage will follow immediately after the conclusion of the Committee stage at 11 o'clock this evening. Arrangements have been made for an amendment paper to be prepared in advance of the commencement of the Report stage. The Public Bill Office will issue an unofficial amendment paper at 9.30 pm incorporating all amendments tabled by 9 pm. A final paper for Report stage will be issued shortly before 11 pm incorporating amendments received up to 10 pm.
§ Simon HughesOn a point of order, Mrs. Heal. Following your helpful announcement, it may assist the Committee and, later, the House to know that, on Report, it is expected that between 11 and 12 o'clock, Conservative and Liberal Democrat Members will wish to debate and vote on at least one amendment on the elusive clause 17 of last Wednesday. I hope that that will help colleagues to make arrangements later.
The First Deputy ChairmanI thank the hon. Gentleman for his point of order which, of course, will be noted.
§ Mr. LetwinFurther to that point of order, Mrs. Heal. I wish to put on the record the fact that it is an astonishing state of affairs for us to spend 15 minutes discussing that subject, which will eat into Third Reading. However, that is the best that we can do.
§ Norman BakerOn a point of order, Mrs. Heal. I wish to put it on record that, in relation to part 9, which has been debated, Liberal Democrat Members opposed clause 79, but not the whole group of clauses. Perforce, we had to vote as we did.