HC Deb 22 November 2001 vol 375 cc457-9
36. Mr. Stephen O'Brien (Eddisbury)

What the Government's policy is on trial by jury, following the publication of the Auld report. [14666]

The Solicitor-General (Ms Harriet Harman)

The Government's policy on jury trials is set out in our manifesto, and in the document "Criminal Justice: The Way Ahead". The Auld report makes a number of new proposals on juries, and the Government are consulting on them.

Mr. O'Brien

In the light of that answer and the Solicitor-General's consultation on the Auld report, does she agree that trial by jury should be replaced by a circuit judge and magistrates for many indictable offences, and that the decision-making process should be interfered with by juries having to give reasons for their verdicts and by the judge and the assessors having to second-guess verdicts by juries?

The Solicitor-General

The hon. Gentleman is right that the substantial Auld report goes far beyond what was in our manifesto and in "Criminal Justice: The Way Ahead". The Auld report recommended that juries should give reasons for their conclusions, that we should ensure ethnic balance on juries and that the right to jury trial should be removed in certain serious fraud cases. We are consulting on those proposals.

David Taylor (North-West Leicestershire)

As a member of the Magistrates Association, I am aware that my colleagues have given a broad welcome to many of the recommendations in the Auld report. However, they are concerned about the status and powers of the two lay magistrates sitting with the judge, to which the hon. Member for Eddisbury (Mr. O'Brien) referred. Will my right hon. and learned Friend reassure us that she will take a fresh look at the powers of those two lay magistrates? They should at least have powers of sentencing.

The Solicitor-General

My hon. Friend will know of our manifesto commitment, and he will not need me to remind him of the importance of carrying out that commitment to remove the widely abused right of defendants alone to dictate whether they should be tried in Crown court. As for the respective roles of magistrates and the new judge in the district division, it is important to have the involvement and views of the magistrates on the relative responsibilities in the proposed new division. Consultation will take place in writing and at regional meetings throughout the country, and I hope my hon. Friend will encourage members of the Magistrates Association to come along to those consultations and put their views. The matter is not cut and dried, and is not written on tablets of stone. We genuinely want to consult on proposals that have such far-reaching implications.

Mr. John Burnett (Torridge and West Devon)

I pay tribute to Lord Justice Auld, his consultants and those who assisted him. His report is comprehensive and thorough, and I am glad that there is an opportunity for further submissions to be made on it.

May I return to the point made by the hon. Member for Eddisbury (Mr. O'Brien) about the so-called middle tier? Does the Solicitor-General agree that there is a real danger that the two lay magistrates will be dominated by the district judge in the proceedings, and that, effectively, juries will be replaced by what used to be a stipendiary magistrate?

Professor Vogeler conducted a study of the system of stipendiary magistrates in Germany. In his report, he concluded that in guilt decision making, the lay-body's functional role is nil Decisions are dominated by the professional"— that is, the judge.

The Solicitor-General

I am well aware that the proposals are controversial. Perhaps I can reassure the hon. Gentleman by saying that we have no set policy on whether we should replace the existing system involving a magistrates court and a Crown court with a jury with a system involving an intermediate court, the district division. In other words, there is no policy of replacing the two-court system with a three-court system; that is a proposal in the Auld report, and I join the hon. Gentleman in paying tribute to those who have put so much work into that radical and far-reaching document.

The issues are under consultation, which will continue until the end of January. Only after that will the Government give their views. It is good that we have had an opportunity to note the concerns that have been raised, but the Government's views are not yet decided.

Ms Bridget Prentice (Lewisham. East)

Will my right hon. and learned Friend confirm that we already have a system whereby two lay magistrates sit with a judge on appeal cases? That is not particularly radical or new.

Have the Government any timetable for the reintroduction of a Bill dealing with the mode of trial? At present, the defendant is the only person who can decide where he or she should be tried. That system does not stack up, and it is time that magistrates were given an opportunity to deal with such cases properly.

The Solicitor-General

My hon. Friend makes two points. First, she reminds us that we already have a system whereby, in some cases, lay magistrates sit with a district judge. That also applies in youth courts. I recently had an opportunity to see the system working—very well—in Camberwell youth court, where a professional judge sits with two lay wing members.

Secondly, my hon. Friend asked us to get a move on and sort out the business of defendants' asking to go to the Crown court, only to plead guilty. She said that they should really be tried in the magistrates court. As she will know, we have a policy on that, but we are consulting in the context of the Auld proposals. The position is difficult to describe. We have a policy, but we are consulting on the wider issues. As I have said, the consultation will finish at the end of January; a White Paper will then be produced, and any Bill will be presented after that.

Mr. William Cash (Stone)

I am glad to hear that the Solicitor-General and the Government have a policy on this, but does the Solicitor-General agree with Liberty that jury trial is, on the whole, fairer than trial in magistrates courts, that there should be no discrimination in regard to who can choose trial by jury, and that jury trial is fairer to black defendants?

The Solicitor-General

I think that the hon. Gentleman would, rightly, be first to complain if we had made a commitment in our manifesto and did not implement it. Like him, however, we are anxious that trials should be fair—that there should be fairness as between defendant and prosecution, and fairness to the victim. Those considerations will be at the forefront of our minds, but we have a settled policy on the right to elect for trial by jury. We are consulting on the wider issues relating to juries that a number of Members have raised.