Antisocial Behaviour

HC Deb 19 November 2001 vol 375 cc13-5

9. Mr. Bill Rammell (Harlow)

If he will make a statement on the use by the police and local councils of antisocial behaviour orders. [13347]

11. Mr. Stephen Hepburn (Jarrow)

If he will make a statement on antisocial behaviour orders. [13350]

The Minister for Police, Courts and Drugs (Mr. John Denham)

As a result of a recent exercise by the Home Office and the police, I can inform the House that the total number of antisocial behaviour orders issued up until the end of September this year was 466, an increase of more than 180 on the previous figure. It is clear that the orders have a significant role to play in tackling antisocial behaviour. A review of their effectiveness will soon be completed, and we will be looking at measures to enhance their use.

Mr. Rammell

My constituents are concerned about antisocial behaviour by a minority, which is a scourge on our community. Does the Minister accept that there is frustration because, despite the welcome increase in the use of antisocial behaviour orders, they are not being taken up as quickly as they should be? Has he considered Ipswich council's piloting of the acceptable behaviour contract with persistent young offenders, which I believe could be a way forward on this issue?

Mr. Denham

Yes, and I understand that my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary will be going to Ipswich tomorrow to see that scheme in action. In many parts of the country, antisocial behaviour orders have proved most effective as part of a well integrated system that includes a lower level of warning measures, such as acceptable behaviour contracts, so that a young person heading towards an antisocial behaviour order is in no doubt of the consequences of continuing their offending behaviour.

Mr. Hepburn

I welcome that answer, and I agree that antisocial behaviour orders are effective, but we need more of them. Is the Minister aware that it takes a police constable an average 100 hours to enact an order? Will he try to cut down on bureaucracy not only to increase the use of orders but to get PCs on the beat, where they should be?

Mr. Denham

As I said, the research that we will publish in the not-too-distant future does not back up the argument that there is impenetrable bureaucracy and that time is wasted in enacting the orders. None the less, I accept that the extent to which people are organised locally makes a difference to the time taken to get the necessary evidence to the courts. I can assure the House that we are open to every practical suggestion to streamline the orders further and to reduce the amount of time and effort required to enact them.

Bob Spink (Castle Point)

Will the Minister visit my constituency so that he can see for himself the nightmare that youth crime is creating for residents in Canvey Island, Tar Pots and Thundersley Common? Does he accept that the best way to deal with antisocial behaviour is to get more police officers on the streets, which means that the Government must provide more resources and reduce bureaucracy? They should also introduce the two IT schemes to which my hon. Friend the Member for Rayleigh (Mr. Francois) referred earlier.

Mr. Denham

The good news is that this Government are providing the resources, which means that police numbers are rising. We will achieve record police numbers in the next 18 months, and during the lifetime of this Government the number of police officers in England and Wales will exceed 130,000.

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to say that, as we get those record police numbers, we must make the most effective use of their time. The research that we recently published showed that 47 per cent. of a police officer's time is spent in the station rather than out on patrol duties, and we have set up a taskforce headed by the chief inspector of constabularies, Sir David O'Dowd, to consider ways of tackling the bureaucracy that is diverting police officers from doing the job in the way they want to do it.

Chris Grayling (Epsom and Ewell)

Is the Minister aware that, despite the contribution that antisocial behaviour orders can make, antisocial behaviour of the kind found in my constituency, especially Ashtead and Stoneleigh, can be tackled only if the police have proper sanctions to use against the offenders? The police in my locality have discovered that because they can take little practical action against young offenders there is a certain "I don't care; you can try it on with me, but you can't touch me" mentality among those youths. Something needs to be done to give the police real sanctions that they can use against juveniles when they step out of line.

Mr. Denham

I agree that the police need to be able to take effective action. However, I am pleased that innovative work by the police in areas like Wrexham and Islington and pioneering initiatives such as acceptable behaviour contracts show that if there is close working between the police, local authorities and other agencies, it is possible to give clear warnings to young people about the consequences of their actions. It is important that the police be supported effectively by magistrates; the Lord Chancellor addressed that when he recently spoke to the Magistrates Association about the need to enforce ASBOs.

Judy Mallaber (Amber Valley)

On 1 November, after threatening police with a home-made firearm in a neighbourhood in my constituency following a domestic dispute in Codnor, Mr. Steven Dickson was shot dead by an officer of the Derbyshire police armed response unit—the first fatal shooting by Derbyshire police since 1977. That is being investigated by the Police Complaints Authority according to normal procedures, but it is obviously a tragedy for Mr. Dickson's family and stressful for the police involved.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that police and bystanders must be protected in such incidents and that the person with the firearm may need to be stopped instantly? However, what progress has been made in investigations of the availability of an effective non-lethal weapon which can avoid loss of life while giving proper protection in firearms incidents?

Mr. Denham

My hon. Friend has raised a very important issue. The whole House will accept that the job of armed police officers is extraordinarily difficult; judgments have to be made, sometimes in extremely short periods, which can have tragic consequences if they are wrong in either direction.

My hon. Friend is right to raise the issue of non-lethal alternatives to firearms. We are close to completing the second phase of work by chief constables and the Northern Ireland Office on those alternatives. We hope that a report will be published by the Northern Ireland Office in the near future, paving the way for a more detailed analysis of factors to be taken into account, of the full medical effects, and of the technologies that look most promising, because they can incapacitate people quickly without fatal consequences. I hope that I have reassured my hon. Friend that work in that important area is progressing urgently.