HC Deb 22 March 2001 vol 365 cc544-8
Mr. Paul Clark

I beg to move promoters amendment No. 5, in page 4, line 26, leave out (7) and insert (8).

Madam Deputy Speaker

With this it will be convenient to consider the following: amendment No. 28, in page 4, line 42, leave out from 'entry' to 'by' in line 43.

Amendment No. 29, in page 5, line 17, leave out '£10' and insert '£100'.

Promoters amendment No. 6, in page 5, line 17, leave out from 'than' to end of line 19 and insert— 'the relevant amount'. Promoters amendment No. 7, in page 5, line 23, at end insert— '(4) For the purposes of subsection (2) above "the relevant amount" is— (a) £10 in the case of vehicle parts, jewellery, watches, photographic equipment, sports equipment, equestrian equipment, boating equipment, musical instruments, tools, bicycles, optical equipment, firearms and gardening equipment; and (b) £50 in the case of all other articles to which that subsection applies; or in either case, such other amount (being no lower than the existing amount) as the council may, with the approval of the Secretary of State, determine.' Promoters amendment No. 8, in page 5, line 24, leave out '(7)' and insert '(8)'.

Promoters amendment No. 9, in line 36, leave out '(4)' and insert '(5)'.

Amendment No. 33, line 36, leave out from 'amount' to end of line 44 and insert— 'is £500 or such other amount (being no lower than the existing amount) as the council may, with the approval of the Secretary of State, determine'. Amendment No. 30, in page 5, line 38, leave out 'jewellery, watches'.

Amendment No. 32, in page 5, line 38, leave out 'photographic equipment'.

Amendment No. 31, in page 5, line 40, leave out musical instruments'.

Promoters amendment No. 10, in page 6, line 2, leave out '(4)' and insert '(5)'.

Promoters amendment No. 11, in page 6, line 3, leave out '(4)' and insert '(5)'.

Promoters amendment No. 12, in page 6, line 21, clause 7, leave out '(4), (8) or (9)' and insert '(5), (9) or (10)'.

Promoters amendment No. 13, in page 6, line 39, leave out '(4)' and insert '(5)'.

Promoters amendment No. 14, in page 6, line 42, leave out '(4)' and insert '(5)'.

Amendment No. 42, in page 10, line 5, clause 12, leave out from 'him' to end of line 6.

Amendment No. 43, in page 10, line 8, leave out from beginning to end of line 10.

Amendment No. 44, in page 10, line 11, leave out from beginning to end of line 13.

Mr. Clark

Amendments Nos. 5, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 and 14 are drafting amendments as a consequence of various small issues that relate to changes elsewhere.

Amendments Nos. 6 and 7 relate to the levels and items required to be recorded by those involved in the second-hand trade. The Select Committee heard detailed evidence and arguments from the promoters, petitioners and their counsel, and witnesses over some 11 days, so detailed consideration was given. The Committee decided that the Bill should continue but with certain amendments, the most significant of which relates to the records which must be kept by registered dealers in second-hand goods. These two amendments relate to that.

Dealers are required to obtain the name and address of the person from whom the articles were acquired. An exemption is provided for articles which, in the reasonable opinion of the dealer at the time of the transaction, will be sold or offered for sale at a price of less than £10. However, that is not to apply to any electrical or battery-powered goods or to any medium on or by which sound, images and other data may be stored and recorded. This is intended to reduce the bureaucracy, but will not exempt those low value items frequently sold, such as audiocassettes and CDs. It may appear to hon. Members that those are relatively insignificant items, but the recovery of smaller items often leads police to those involved in thefts of more valuable items.

The petitioners argued that antiques should be exempt or that the threshold for record-keeping should be raised to £50. The problem is that antique dealers also trade in works of art and collectors' items, and the existing legal definitions to be found in VAT legislation are too complex and would make the legislation unworkable. Since then, the promoters have introduced an amendment which tackles the problem differently, but will raise the threshold for most antiques to £50. Therefore, the proposals in amendments Nos. 6 and 7 are that the £10 threshold be retained for specified items similar to those requiring records when the dealer sells items for £100 or more. Again, the law of thresholds must be maintained for those items identified by the police as most frequently stolen.

Consequently, as the Bill stands, all electrical and battery-powered items will need to be recorded, together with items for use with electrical items such as CDs and computer games. That will remain the case for the reasons that I have outlined. All other items will need to be recorded if, in the view of the dealer when purchasing them, they would be sold on for more than £10. The effect of our amendment is to raise the financial limit in respect of those goods.

The £10 limit will still apply to goods listed in the amendment, namely vehicle parts, jewellery, watches, photographical equipment, sports equipment, equestrian equipment, boating equipment, musical instruments, tools, bicycles, firearms and gardening equipment. All other items, including most antiques, would not need to be recorded if their onward sale is believed to be at less than £50.

Mr. Andrew Rowe (Faversham and Mid-Kent)

If, as can happen, on closer inspection the article appears later to be worth a great deal more than £10, does it become an offence for the dealer to sell it for more than £10 if he or she has allowed the vendor to disappear without registering the provenance?

Mr. Clark

That is a valid question. Obviously, a judgment could be made and subsequently the item bought could be found to be more valuable than at first thought. The Bill Provides for that not to be a criminal offence. Clearly, if someone consistently undertook that line of defence, one would take the necessary action. I commend the amendments to the House.

Mr. Wyatt

This is the trickiest part for antique traders, the group whom I represent. My comments relate specifically to page 5, lines 36 to 40.

When a house is cleared there are often between 3,000 and 4,000 objects. Their worth will vary from nothing to thousands and thousands of pounds. We are looking for an upper threshold. I wonder whether the sponsor will give some thought to that.

In the antiques trade it is unusual for jewellery, watches and musical instruments to be worth less than £100; the price tends to be much higher—so we are putting in the same bracket objects with different values. It is incredibly bureaucratic for dealers to have to list 4,000 or 5,000 objects, or even fewer, from a house. Will the hon. Gentleman consider raising the £100 threshold to £500?

Mr. Clark

My hon. Friend's amendments are opposed for the simple reason that the effect of raising that limit to £500 would be virtually to annihilate the basis of the Bill. As for excluding specifics, such as jewellery or watches, they are the very items that the police will say are stolen and passed on and that they want to follow through. We must remember that at the end of the day about £110 million worth of goods are stolen every year in Kent. That is last year's figure and it may well have gone up. Only about 25 per cent. is returned.

My hon. Friend's amendments would undermine the main provisions of the Bill, which are to put in place a paper trail that is useful to the police and trading standards officers, and will enable them to return the goods, bring to justice those who have stolen them, and provide some compensation to victims.

4.30 pm
Mr. Wyatt

If the figure cited by my hon. Friend is correct, I guess that, it must be for recorded crime and that it must be a valuation. I do not know who carries out such valuations, but let us accept the figure. Less than 2 per cent. of that relates to the antiques trade. The provisions would increase bureaucracy and red tape for a fine profession. That will cause real damage to communities in Kent and Medway. The easiest solution would be to exempt the antiques trade. Will my hon. Friend consider that? The provision seems incredibly unfair.

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

The House proceeded to a Division; but no Member being willing to act as Teller, MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER declared that the Ayes had it.

Question accordingly agreed to.

Amendment made: promoters amendment No. 2, in page 4, line 29, leave out 'his business' and insert—

'the business in respect of which he is registered'.—[Mr. Paul Clark.]

Mr. Wyatt

I beg to move amendment No. 27, in page 4, line 29, leave out from 'business' to 'enter' in line 30.

Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Sylvia Heal)

With this it will be convenient take the following amendments: No. 34, in page 6, line 3, after 'shall', insert 'not'.

No. 35, in page 6, line 4, leave out from 'county' to end of line 12.

Mr. Wyatt

My concern is that the provision applies to non-Kent crime. It is hard enough that it should apply even to Kent. Will the sponsor consider adding the word "not" to subsection (7), so that it reads: Subsections (1) and (4) above shall not apply to transactions which take place outside the county. That would seem to me to be an extension of the principle of the law. Will the sponsor reflect on that?

Mr. Paul Clark

We do not accept that. The simple reason is that if one takes away the requirement that purchases outside the county of Kent be recorded, a rogue trader could argue—when questioned about a certain item—that he or she had bought it outside the county. That excuse could be used by people who did not want to assist in providing the information required under the Bill. The claim that items were bought outside the county would be a simple way of overcoming the requirement to record the purchase. We cannot accept the amendment—to do so would negate the Bill and undermine its provisions.

Amendment negatived.

Amendments made: promoters amendment No. 6, in page 5, line 17, leave out from 'than' to end of line 19 and insert— 'the relevant amount'. Promoters amendment No. 7, in page 5, line 23, at end insert— (4) For the purposes of subsection (2) above "the relevant amount" is— (a) £10 in the case of vehicle parts, jewellery, watches, photographic equipment, sports equipment, equestrian equipment, boating equipment, musical instruments, tools, bicycles, optical equipment, firearms and gardening equipment; and (b) £50 in the case of all other articles to which that subsection applies;

or in either case, such other amount (being no lower than the existing amount) as the council may, with the approval of the Secretary of State, determine.' Promoters amendment No. 8, in page 5, line 24, leave out '(7)' and insert '(8)'.

Promoters amendment No. 9, in page 5, line 36, leave out '(4)' and insert '(5)'.

Promoters amendment No. 10, in page 6, line 2, leave out '(4)' and insert '(5)'.

Promoters amendment No. 11, in page 6, line 3, leave out '(4)' and insert '(5)'.

Promoters amendment No. 12, in page 6, line 21, leave out '(4), (8) or (9)' and insert '(5), (9) or (10)'.—[Mr. Paul Clark.]

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