HC Deb 19 July 2001 vol 372 cc461-9 2.12 pm
The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Ruth Kelly)

I beg to move, That, in accordance with the resolution of the Programming Committee of 18th July and pursuant to the Programme Order of 3rd July 2001 (proceedings in Committee of the whole House, on consideration and on Third Reading of the European Communities (Finance) Bill)— (1) proceedings in Committee of the whole House shall, so far as not previously concluded, he brought to a conclusion at 8.30 p.m. on the first allotted day (or, if that day is a Thursday, 5.30 p.m.); (2) any proceedings on consideration and proceedings on Third Reading shall be taken on the second allotted day and, so far as not previously concluded, shall he brought to a conclusion at 10.00 p.m. on the day (or, if that day is a Thursday 7.00 p.m.).

I am pleased to move this motion, which provides for the conclusion of consideration in Committee by 5.30 today, and a further full day for remaining stages. We had a lively and good-natured debated on Second Reading, and it is important that all the issues of concern to hon. Members be properly scrutinised now. The motion allows the House adequate time to discuss this very short but important Bill, and I commend it to the House.

2.13 pm
Mr. James Clappison (Hertsmere)

The Economic Secretary to the Treasury did not take long to speak to the programme motion, but I have one or two points to make about it. I should also state at the outset that I am by no means an admirer of the new arrangements that have been made, under the guise of so-called modernisation, to timetable legislation. The more I see of the operation of those arrangements, the more unsatisfactory they seem to be.

The usual reason why the arrangements are unsatisfactory is that, as we all well know, they constrain the House in its consideration of legislation. Bills are now passed by the House when large parts of them have received inadequate consideration, or in some cases no consideration at all. The arrangements therefore fundamentally negate the purpose of the House. However, we will not necessarily encounter those problems when considering the European Communities (Finance) Bill. The problem with this programme motion is that, in addition to the problems that I have just mentioned, it does not allow sufficient flexibility in considering the Bill in Committee and on Third Reading.

This Bill is important in its own way, and hon. Members on both sides of the House may wish to debate the important issues that it raises. The Economic Secretary was right to say that the Bill raised issues for debate. She was also right to say that we had a good debate on Second Reading, when Opposition Members properly raised some important issues. If hon. Members on either side of the House wished to address those issues in detail, the arrangements that have been made would be all well and good.

As we know, however, thus far no amendments to the Bill have been tabled. Our debates on the Bill today may be simply on whether its clauses should stand part. Perhaps those debates will occupy all the time that the Economic Secretary has said is available, but we shall have to wait and see. Perhaps that will not be the case. Perhaps there would have been sufficient time today to consider the Bill even on Third Reading. We simply do not know what will happen in the time available today.

The Opposition do not know why the programme motion was drafted so as to exclude the possibility of considering the Bill on Third Reading today. The motion provides that, regardless of whether we use all the time allocated for consideration in Committee, Third Reading is bound to occupy a second allotted day, in the autumn when the House returns from the summer recess. Those arrangements do not seem to be the most flexible possible, or even necessarily to work in the interests of the House, either in considering the Bill or in best using valuable parliamentary time.

Interestingly, as originally drafted, the motion provided for consideration on Third Reading today, the first allotted day. Additionally, when the motion was originally drafted, it was not known whether amendments would be tabled for debate in Committee. Yesterday, however, after it had become apparent that no amendments had been tabled, the motion was changed to exclude the possibility of Third Reading today. That is a strange arrangement.

Undoubtedly issues will arise in our consideration of this short Bill today, and they will have to be addressed. I am all for detailed scrutiny, and my usual criticism of programme motions is that they prevent such scrutiny. However, I do not know why we should be governed by programme motions that are so inflexible that they exclude the possibility of a debate on Third Reading even if such a debate would allow the best use of parliamentary time. I do not think that anything is to be gained by being so inflexible.

I must therefore conclude that this programme motion has exposed yet another unsatisfactory feature of the timetabling arrangements that the Government have introduced for the consideration of Bills. So often those arrangements not only prevent us from considering Bills properly and in the depth we should like, but are so inflexible that they could result, as they may today, in parliamentary time not being used in the best possible manner. We have discovered one more unsatisfactory feature of the arrangements, on top of all the others. It just goes to show that the arrangements have not been well thought through, and work against proper parliamentary scrutiny and proper parliamentary democracy.

2.19 pm
Mr. Edward Davey (Kingston and Surbiton)

I support the thrust of the argument of the hon. Member for Hertsmere (Mr. Clappison). When the Programming Committee met yesterday, we had an interesting situation, because the representatives of both the main Opposition parties were arguing against the Government, saying that the Government were probably allowing too much time for debate. There may be one or two Back Benchers, such as the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth), who would object to such a statement—

Mr. Eric Forth (Bromley and Chislehurst)


Mr. Davey

Indeed, given his seemingly very passionate speech on Second Reading, I should have thought that the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood) would object to it, too. However, having examined the Bill and listened to the debate on Second Reading, the hon. Member for Mid-Worcestershire (Mr. Luff)—the Conservative Whip—and I felt that the time being allowed today was sufficient for proceedings both in Committee and on Third Reading.

The fact that there are no amendments would suggest that that interpretation was correct. So the important issue of parliamentary time being well used arises. In the Programming Committee, when we asked why so much time had been allowed to debate the Bill, we received no answer. We found it rather odd that the request from Opposition parties to reduce the time allocated to the Bill was not met with agreement. Given that the Minister has had more than 24 hours to muse on that, I hope that she will explain why it has been given so much time. Given the current problems in the Conservative party—

Mr. Forth

What problems?

Mr. Davey

The fact that its next leader might be a pro-European, although his Back Benchers are anti-European—

Mr. Forth

That is indeed a problem.

Mr. Davey

It is not often that the right hon. Gentleman and I are in agreement, but on this occasion it appears that we are.

Perhaps the Government want to start as they mean to continue if the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke) becomes the leader of the Conservative party, and promote as many debates and votes as possible on European issues in order to give the splits in the Conservative party a public airing—but I may be ascribing too many machiavellian tendencies to the Government.

I do not want to insult the Minister or the Whip, but I believe that parliamentary time is precious. As we are given only three days in the parliamentary year to debate the estimates, and are told that we are not allowed to debate our country's expenditure at greater length, it is bizarre that we have been given an extra day to debate a relatively small sum of money, when the Opposition parties have requested that the debate be allocated less time.

I hope that the Minister will either give us a good reason why we should vote for the motion, or say that she is prepared to allow a Third Reading debate today.

2.22 pm
Mr. Eric Forth (Bromley and Chislehurst)

All that raises the question of whether we need a programme motion in respect of this Bill at all, as it is becoming increasingly obvious that my hon. Friends on the Front Bench are in an indecent hurry to get the Bill through, and the hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr. Davey) seems to think that the Government did not know what they were doing, which is quite an indictment, coming from a friend of the Government. The fact that yesterday in Committee the Minister was unable to give an answer was no surprise to me, and it should have been no surprise to the hon. Gentleman—but perhaps our patience will be rewarded now, and the Minister will grace us with an explanation beyond what she has said so far.

The truth is depressingly familiar. These programme motions are turning out to be an embarrassment and an affront to the House. In this case, in the very few words that the Minister was prepared to utter in some sort of defence of the motion, she said that in her view it would allow adequate time for debate. That exemplifies the attitude that is now being repeated over and over again in relation to programme motions: Ministers are to judge how much time should be available for the House to conduct its proceedings. It is now quite blatantly becoming a matter of routine. The Minister said, "I think that I know how much time will be required for the debate." In most cases we tend to argue that almost certainly the time will be inadequate, but on this occasion—perhaps we should note the day and the date—my hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere (Mr. Clappison) and the hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton seem to be saying that far too much time is being offered.

Mr. Clappison

The question that the Government need to address is: why should we exclude the possibility of a Third Reading today if consideration in Committee finishes unexpectedly early? Important issues that have to be discussed may occupy all the available time, and that would be well and good—but what is to be gained by excluding the possibility of a Third Reading debate today if consideration in Committee does not occupy all the allotted time?

Mr. Forth

As a pale and inadequate substitute for the Minister, let me try to answer my hon. Friend and offer a possible explanation. The Government presumably want us to get on to the Northern Ireland business, and then perhaps deal with further business. Had they taken the approach that my hon. Friend has helpfully and inventively suggested, it might have put at risk an adequate Third Reading debate—or, if the Government had not put an end to the whole proceedings, we might even, heaven forbid, have had to sit after 7 o'clock this evening. That is perhaps a clue to the Government's thinking. They are so afraid of keeping the House—and for "the House" I can probably substitute "the babes", as it is usually they who are behind these things—and asking the delicate flowers on the Labour Benches to stay after 7 o'clock on a Thursday, that the whole business has to be structured in order to avoid that horrendous prospect.

I suspect that the Government work back from the convenience of certain Members who do not want to tarry here too long, and then fit the business in accordingly. So this has nothing to do with the nature of the business, the extent of interest in the House or anything of that kind, but everything to do with fitting the business of the House in for the convenience of Members who obviously do not want to spend much time here. That is probably the explanation—but no doubt we will get a much fuller explanation from the Minister when she replies to the debate.

Yet again, Ministers have taken it upon themselves to make a judgment about how much time the House will require, and that is the end of the matter. The House then has to fit in with the Minister's judgment and the convenience of Ministers, regardless of how much we may want to say or how much scrutiny we may want to give a measure.

My next point is well illustrated by what has happened today. Even Ministers do not necessarily know what business may come up. Normally we would expect to get to the main business on a Thursday at roughly 1.15 pm. We have departmental questions from 11.30 to 12.30. We then have business questions, which Mr. Speaker, with his normal generosity and open-handedness, normally allows to run its natural distance, which is normally until about 1.15 pm. Today, however, we had a very important statement in which many hon. Members were rightly interested, so we did not get to this business until about 2.15.

In other words, there was an hour less than would normally be available. That is not in any way allowed for in the approach that the Government are now taking with this heavy-handed, automatic, rigid, inflexible programming that we are now required to have laid upon us, which takes no account of what may happen in the House in the way of statements, private notice questions or whatever. Today provided a good example of that. That is another argument against programming, and against the Government's approach.

There is also the rather odd phenomenon that my hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere touched on. The Government have stated their intention that, slightly unusually, the Third Reading of this measure will be detached by a period of about three months from the Committee stage. That would suggest that there can be no urgency or importance whatever about the Bill—personally, I welcome that—and that any number of events could intrude between now and then which could affect the attitude of the House to the Third Reading debate.

It is one thing if we can anticipate having a Third Reading debate fairly quickly after the Committee stage, but it is quite another if there is to be an intervening period of three months. Anything could happen—who knows? The United Kingdom could leave the European Union—although for some of us that is but a dream. Any number of things could happen between now and then that could have a material effect on the Bill. So the confidence of the Government in asking us today to approve a measure that will determine the length of the Third Reading debate three months hence is even more bizarre than would usually be the case. I could just about understand the Government arguing that if we were to have Third Reading next week, they could reasonably anticipate how much time we were likely to need, but this is entirely different.

The Minister has some explaining to do to persuade us that the motion is appropriate in the circumstances. Self-evidently, the Bill is not urgent and the time needed for the rest of our business today cannot be foreseen. I am delighted to see that the business motion, item 5 on the Order Paper, has the magic words "Until any hour" attached to it. That must mean that it is a matter of some importance that will require very lengthy consideration. We should be grovellingly grateful to the Government for their generosity in allowing such a debate.

What follows may be relevant to the approach that we may take to this motion and whether we feel it appropriate for our business to be truncated as the Government are suggesting.

This is an unusual programme motion. My hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere and the Liberals are taking the odd approach that they want to hurry on, take Third Reading and get the whole matter dispatched rather quickly. I, who favour a more leisurely approach, am positively stunned and delighted by the fact that we are to have a three-month period of reflection between Committee stage and Third Reading. However, the product of that protracted reflection might have some relevance to the amount of time that the motion should allow for Third Reading.

We are in unusual circumstances. I am sure that the Minister will feel an urge to explain at some length why she cannot rush the Bill through as fast as my hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere seems to want, and why we are to be given this period of reflection.

Needless to say, I am unhappy with the motion. Unless the Minister gives an adequate explanation, I will certainly want to resist it, as we generally do, not routinely but taking each case on its merits. I know that she will do her best. I can see her straining at the leash, desperate to let us have it in great detail and at great length, but unless she comes up with a satisfactory explanation, I am afraid that we will have to oppose the motion.

2.32 pm
Ruth Kelly

We had a lively and good-natured debate on Second Reading, and I very much look forward to continuing in the same tone today. I believe that the time allocated will allow us ample opportunity to discuss these important issues.

The House overwhelmingly agreed to have programming motions and timetable motions for Bills such as this, so that we could have sensible and serious debate on all issues. It is extraordinary that Conservative Members should choose a European matter on which to say that they have been granted too much time for debate. As the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth) suggested, we should probably note the day and the time. He said that he was stunned and delighted by the time available, and I am glad that he agrees that we have allowed sufficient time to address all the issues.

As for flexibility, we have until 5.30 pm at most for consideration in Committee, but if hon. Members feel that there has been sufficient debate, it is totally in order for proceedings to draw to a close before that time.

Question put:—

The House divided: Ayes 286, Noes 108.

Division No. 36] [2.34 pm
Abbott, Ms Diane Bennett, Andrew
Ainsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE) Benton, Joe
Allen, Graham Berry, Roger
Armstrong, Rt Hon Ms Hilary Best, Harold
Atherton, Ms Candy Betts, Clive
Atkins, Charlotte Blizzard, Bob
Austin, John Boateng, Rt Hon Paul
Bailey, Adrian Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)
Baird, Vera Brennan, Kevin
Barnes, Harry Brown, Russell (Dumfries)
Barron, Kevin Browne, Desmond
Battle, John Bryant, Chris
Bayley, Hugh Burgon, Colin
Beard, Nigel Burnham, Andy
Begg, Miss Anne Caborn, Rt Hon Richard
Cairns, David Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)
Casale, Roger Hepburn, Stephen
Caton, Martin Heppell, John
Challen, Colin Hesford, Stephen
Chapman, Ben (Wirral S) Heyes, David
Clapham, Michael Hill, Keith
Clark, Dr Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands) Hodge, Margaret
Hood, Jimmy
Clark, Paul (Gillingham) Hope, Phil
Clarke, Rt Hon Tom (Coatbridge) Hopkins, Kelvin
Clelland, David Howells, Dr Kim
Clwyd, Ann Hoyle, Lindsay
Coaker, Vernon Hughes, Beverley (Stretford)
Coffey, Ms Ann Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Cohen, Harry Humble, Mrs Joan
Coleman, Iain Hutton, John
Colman, Tony Iddon, Dr Brian
Connarty, Michael Illsley, Eric
Cook, Frank (Stockton N) Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead)
Cook, Rt Hon Robin (Livingston) Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)
Cooper, Yvette Jamieson, David
Corston, Jean Jenkins, Brian
Cousins, Jim Johnson, Alan (Hull W & Hessle)
Cranston, Ross Jones, Helen (Warrington N)
Cruddas, Jon Jones, Kevan (N Durham)
Cryer, Mrs Ann (Keighley) Jones, Lynne (Selly Oak)
Cummings, John Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)
Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try S) Jowell, Rt Hon Tessa
Cunningham, Tony (Workington) Joyce, Eric
Curtis-Thomas, Mrs Claire Keeble, Ms Sally
Davey, Valerie (Bristol W) Keen, Alan (Feltham & Heston)
David, Wayne Keen, Ann (Brentford & Isleworth)
Davidson, Ian Kelly, Ruth
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli) Kemp, Fraser
Davies, Geraint (Croydon C) Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)
Dawson, Hilton Khabra, Piara S
Denham, Rt Hon John Kidney, David
Dhanda, Parmjit Kilfoyle, Peter
Dobson, Rt Hon Frank Knight, Jim (S Dorset)
Donohoe, Brian H Kumar, Dr Ashok
Doran, Frank Ladyman, Dr Stephen
Drew, David Lazarowicz, Mark
Drown, Ms Julia Lapper, David
Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth Leslie, Christopher
Eagle, Angela (Wallasey) Levitt, Tom
Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston) Liddell, Rt Hon Mrs Helen
Edwards, Huw Linton, Martin
Efford, Clive Lloyd, Tony
Ellman, Mrs Louise Love, Andrew
Farrelly, Paul Lucas, Ian
Field, Rt Hon Frank (Birkenhead) Luke, Iain
Fisher, Mark Lyons, John
Fitzpatrick, Jim McAvoy, Thomas
Fitzsimons, Mrs Loma McCabe, Stephen
Flynn, Paul McCafferty, Chris
Foster, Rt Hon Derek McCartney, Rt Hon Ian
Foster, Michael (Worcester) McDonagh, Siobhain
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings) MacDonald, Calum
Foulkes, George McDonnell, John
Francis, Dr Hywel MacDougall, John
George, Rt Hon Bruce (Walsall S) McFall, John
Gerrard, Neil McGuire, Mrs Anne
Gilroy, Linda McIsaac, Shona
Griffiths, Jane (Reading E) McKechin, Ann
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S) McKenna, Rosemary
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend) Mackinlay, Andrew
Grogan, John McNamara, Kevin
Hain, Peter Mactaggart, Fiona
Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale) McWalter, Tony
Hall, Patrick (Bedford) Mahmood, Khalid
Hamilton, David (Midlothian) Mahon, Mrs Alice
Hanson, David Mallaber, Judy
Harris, Tom (Glasgow Cathcart) Mandelson, Rt Hon Peter
Havard, Dai Mann, John
Healey, John Marris, Rob
Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N) Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury)
Martlew, Eric Shipley, Ms Debra
Merron, Gillian Simon, Siôn
Michael, Rt Hon Alun Skinner, Dennis
Miliband, David Smith, Angela (Basildon)
Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby) Smith, Rt Hon Chris (Islington S)
Moffatt, Laura Smith, Geraldine (Morecambe)
Moonie, Dr Lewis Smith, John (Glamorgan)
Moran, Margaret Soley, Clive
Morgan, Julie Southworth, Helen
Morris, Rt Hon Estelle Spellar, John
Mountford, Kali Steinberg, Gerry
Mudie, George Stewart, David (Inverness E)
Mullin, Chris Stinchcombe, Paul
Munn, Ms Meg Stoate, Dr Howard
Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck) Strang, Rt Hon Dr Gavin
Murphy, Rt Hon Paul (Torfaen) Stringer, Graham
Naysmith, Dr Doug Sutcliffe, Gerry
Norris, Dan Tami, Mark
O'Hara, Edward Taylor, Ms Dari (Stockton S)
Olner, Bill Taylor, David (NW Leics)
Organ, Diana Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)
Osborne, Sandra (Ayr) Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W)
Owen, Albert Timms, Stephen
Palmer, Dr Nick Tipping, Paddy
Pearson, Ian Todd, Mark
Perham, Linda Touhig, Don
Picking Anne Trickett, Jon
Pickthall, Colin Truswell, Paul
Pike Peter Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)
Plaskitt, James Turner, Dr Desmond (Kemptown)
Pond, Chris Turner, Neil (Wigan)
Pope Greg Twigg, Derek (Halton)
Pound, Stephen Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)
Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E) Tynan, Bill
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle) Vis, Dr Rudi
Primarolo, Dawn Walley, Ms Joan
Prosser, Gwyn Ward, Ms Claire
Purchase, Ken Wareing, Robert N
Quin, Rt Hon Joyce Watson, Tom
Quinn, Lawrie Watts, David
Rammell, Bill White, Brian
Rapson, Syd Wicks, Malcolm
Raynsford, Rt Hon Nick Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W)
Reed, Andy (Loughborough)
Robertson, John (Glasgow Anniesland) Winnick, David
Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)
Wood, Mike
Roy, Frank Woolas, Phil
Ruane, Chris Worthington, Tony
Ruddock, Joan Wright, David (Telford)
Ryan, Joan Wright, Tony (Cannock)
Salter, Martin Wyatt, Derek
Savidge, Malcolm
Sawford, Phil Tellers for the Ayes:
Shaw, Jonathan Mr. Tony McNulty and
Sheridan, Jim Mr. Nick Ainger.
Allan, Richard Cameron, David
Amess, David Campbell, Gregory (E Lond'y)
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham) Campbell, Rt Hon Menzies (NE Fife)
Bacon, Richard
Baker, Norman Carmichael, Alistair
Baldry, Tony Cash, William
Barrett, John Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet)
Beggs, Roy
Beith, Rt Hon A J Clappison, James
Boswell, Tim Davey, Edward (Kingston)
Brady, Graham Davis, Rt Hon David (Haltemprice)
Brake, Tom Djanogly, Jonathan
Brooke, Annette Dodds, Nigel
Browning, Mrs Angela Donaldson, Jeffrey M
Burstow, Paul Doughty, Sue
Burt, Alistair Duncan, Peter
Butterfill, John Ewing, Annabelle
Calton, Patsy Fallon, Michael
Flight, Howard Osborne, George (Tatton)
Forth, Rt Hon Eric Page, Richard
Foster, Don (Bath) Paterson, Owen
Francois, Mark Pickles, Eric
Gale, Roger Price, Adam
Gidley, Sandra Pugh, Dr John
Gillan, Mrs Cheryl Reid, Alan (Argyll & Bute)
Green, Matthew (Ludlow) Rendel, David
Grieve, Dominic Robathan, Andrew
Hancock, Mike Robertson, Angus (Moray)
Harris, Dr Evan (Oxford W) Robinson, Iris (Strangford)
Hayes, John Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)
Heath, David Russell, Bob (Colchester)
Hermon, Lady Sanders, Adrian
Hoban, Mark Sayeed, Jonathan
Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas Simmonds, Mark
Holmes, Paul Simpson, Keith (Mid-Norfolk)
Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot) Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns)
Jenkin, Bernard Stunell, Andrew
Keetch, Paul Swayne, Desmond
Kennedy, Rt Hon Charles (Ross Skye & Inverness W) Swire, Hugo
Syms, Robert
Kirkwood, Archy Taylor, Ian (Esher & Walton)
Lamb Norman Taylor, John (Solihull)
Laws David Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)
Leigh, Edward Thurso, John
Letwin, Oliver Turner, Andrew (Isle of Wight)
Lewis, Dr Julian (New Forest E) Tyler, Paul
Liddell-Grainger, Ian Walter, Robert
Lidington, David Waterson, Nigel
Loughton, Tim Watkinson, Angela
McIntosh, Miss Anne Weir, Michael
McLoughlin, Patrick Wilkinson, John
Mawhinney, Rt Hon Sir Brian Williams, Hywel (Caemarfon)
Mercer, Patrick Wishart, Pete
Mitchell, Andrew (Sutton Coldfield) Younger-Ross, Richard
Murrison, Dr Andrew Tellers for the Noes:
Oaten, Mark Mr. John Randall and
Öpik, Lembit Mr. Peter Luff.

Question accordingly agreed to.