HC Deb 22 January 2001 vol 361 cc650-2
32. Mr. Gordon Prentice (Pendle)

What steps are being taken to enhance pensions for the clergy. [144811]

Mr. Stuart Bell (Second Church Estates Commissioner, representing the Church Commissioners)

The Archbishops Council has in progress a review of the clergy remuneration package. This will include pensions. Consideration will be given to how stipends and pensions are to be funded as well as the levels at which they are set.

Mr. Prentice

My hon. Friend mentioned the Archbishops Council, but women cannot become archbishops or bishops in the established Church. Given that the full pension entitlement goes only to those clergy who have served 37 years, that women priests are more likely to have a broken work record and that the pension scheme is non-contributory because of the low level of the stipend, is there not a case for giving additional pension contributions to women priests in recognition of this concrete—not glass—ceiling that keeps them where they are no matter how holy they might be?

Mr. Bell

I am grateful to my hon. Friend, although I thought he might say, as he did to my right hon. Friend the Minister for the Arts, that my reply was immensely reassuring. However, he did not do that this time. I am sure that women priests will be happy to know that the Archbishops Council has started a review of the clergy's stipends and is consulting widely within the Church as part of that process. My hon. Friend's contribution will be fully taken into account.

Mr. Simon Hughes (Southwark, North and Bermondsey)

The pensions of the clergy depend in some measure on the income that comes into the Church from its land and property holdings. Therefore, will the hon. Gentleman undertake to discuss with the commission and with the people affected the property management of the tenanted estates in my constituency and elsewhere in London, where there is considerable dissatisfaction with the way in which they are managed and with the amount of money that is charged in return for work? Will he also discuss the carrying out of an audit on the amount of property that is held by the Church which is of great value? Instead of being sold to pay for the poor, it is being held to add to the wealth of the Church. That is against every principle that I can find in the Bible.

Mr. Bell

The hon. Gentleman should know that the costs of the clergy's pensions in respect of service before 1998 are met by the Church Commissioners and are underwritten by their assets. Pensions for service from 1998 onwards are met from a separate fund, to which the dioceses make contributions from the money raised by parishes. The contribution rate is subject to actuarial review every three years.

I am sure that the Church Commissioners will be interested in the hon. Gentleman's views on the wider question of Church property and how it should be used.

Mr. John Bercow (Buckingham)

Has the hon. Gentleman assessed the impact of the withdrawal of the tax credit on dividends on the level of clergy pensions? Furthermore, what discussions has he had with the Church Commissioners about the circumstances in which clergymen are dismissed either on account of their parishioners' disapproval of their religious doctrine or on account of their personal behaviour? Has he discussed what impact that might have on their pension entitlements?

Mr. Bell

As we say in the law courts, that was two questions rather than one. However, I shall seek to answer both as best as I can. I repeat what I said to the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey (Mr. Hughes). Pensions paid for by the Church of England through the commissioners ceased for service carried out after 1998. From that time forth, they have been a matter for the dioceses.

I am happy to take advice on the hon. Gentleman's wider question, and I shall reply in writing. If the answer is of sufficient interest, it may be placed in the Library.