HC Deb 16 January 2001 vol 361 cc188-9
5. Mr. John Randall (Uxbridge)

What measures his Department is taking to tackle the problem of antisocial behaviour by travellers; and if he will make a statement. [143968]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Environment, Transport and the Regions (Mr. Chris Mullin)

My Department has issued revised circular guidance to local authorities on unauthorised camping, making it clear that criminal or antisocial behaviour should not be tolerated in any circumstances. Such behaviour is as unacceptable in the gypsy and traveller communities as it is in the settled community and it should be dealt with using the powers already available to local authorities and the police. A copy of the circular, issued on 26 July 2000, is in the Library of the House.

Mr. Randall

The Minister must be aware that one problem that is often encountered is that when an illegal encampment is evicted, the occupants simply go a short distance away and create another nuisance. Is his Department thinking of any measures that could be taken that would prevent such behaviour, which is creating much expense for local authorities, individuals and businesses?

Mr. Mullin

The difficulty is that merely moving people on does not solve the problem, because it simply transfers it over the border into the area of a neighbouring local authority. The key to dealing—[Interruption.] It is a serious issue. The key to dealing with problems with travellers is co-operation between local authorities and the police. When the police and local authorities work closely together—there are some examples of good practice that others would do well to emulate, such as in Essex, Northamptonshire and Oxford—the problem caused by antisocial travellers can be easily contained.

I am not sure that there is a very great problem in the hon. Gentleman's constituency. We looked up the returns that his local authority, Hillingdon, had made for the number of illegally parked caravans. It did not make a return to the most recent census, in July 2000, and the highest number in recent years was seven, in January 1999.

Mr. Mark Todd (South Derbyshire)

Is not one problem that the traditional activity of many illegal travellers and campers is waste collection and disposal, which they carry out in defiance of environmental protection law, which covers the licensing of vehicles and the safe and appropriate disposal of what they collect? Would it not be useful to ensure that the regulatory authorities understand that law, and apply it properly to those who carry out those activities?

Mr. Mullin

Yes, my hon. Friend is quite right. A large part of the problem is not a lack of powers but a lack of proper enforcement. The powers exist and there are some fairly stiff penalties, but co-operation between local authorities and police, and sometimes other agencies, is needed to ensure that they are properly enforced.

Mr. Damian Green (Ashford)

I wonder whether the Minister recognises how complacent he sounds on this issue. The Government have simply failed to act effectively. If he does not want to accept that from me, perhaps he will listen to the words of the hon. Member for South Derbyshire (Mr. Todd), who said in July 2000: Travellers are setting up on illegal sites in Derbyshire because the police are seen as a soft touch. Will the Minister acknowledge that the guidelines on travellers who trespass, issued by chief police officers, say: Sometimes the reason for non-exercise of police powers will he a lack of police resources? His colleagues admit it; the police admit it. When will he admit that the Government have failed decent, law-abiding people on this issue?

Mr. Mullin

As I said, this is a serious issue. We are not in the least complacent. First, we have already toughened the guidelines. Secondly, we made available £17 million over the past three years to upgrade legal camping sites, and not a lot happened. In many cases, those sites deteriorated beyond recognition under the previous Administration, and it is a serious problem. We cannot hope to evict illegal travellers unless they have somewhere reasonable to go, so we are making available £17 million to upgrade the 300 or so existing sites. We consider that to be an important precondition for addressing the problem.

Mr. Andrew Mackinlay (Thurrock)

I do not accept the tenor of the question, because there are some decent travellers, but I want to raise a specific problem that has arisen in my constituency and elsewhere. Itinerant horses have strayed on to the A13, for example. The local authorities and the police do not have the power to require that the cost of impounding the horses be met by those reclaiming them. Will my hot. Friend consider introducing legislation to ensure that the costs of recovery and custody of the horses are recoverable, or the horses are not returned?

Mr. Mullin

We recognise that there are still many problems, such as the one that my hon. Friend has mentioned. We are in the market for constructive suggestions. We will consider any serious suggestion for improving the enforcement of existing regulations. In most instances, the necessary powers exist. It is a matter of proper enforcement, and there are councils where that has happened.