HC Deb 03 December 2001 vol 376 cc21-4 3.31 pm
Mr. Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton)

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I ask for your guidance, assistance and, indeed—as a Back Bencher—even your protection.

In the business statement last Thursday, my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House announced as business for today: Opposition Day…until 7 o'clock on a subject on which we have yet to be notified. Followed by a debate entitled 'The Government's Mismanagement of Wembley Stadium, Pickett's Lock and the Dome', also on an Opposition motion."—[Official Report, 29 November 2001; Vol. 375, c. 1103.] That having been announced by the Leader of the House, you may recall, Mr. Speaker, that I wrote to you asking if I could catch your eye during the debate on Wembley stadium, Picketts Lock and the dome. Then, no doubt like a considerable number of hon. Members on both sides of the House, I began to prepare for that debate.

I walked into the House today and picked up the Order Paper so as to ascertain the exact terms of the Opposition motion on that matter only to discover that there was no Opposition motion on it. I therefore made inquiries and found that the Opposition had been in a state of flux over the matter before and since last Thursday, and that they did not in fact decide the issue that they wanted to raise today until six minutes before the House rose on Friday.

I ask for your guidance, Mr. Speaker, because it is my understanding that the business of the House must be as announced by the Leader of the House unless the Leader of the House makes an additional, further, later business statement. Indeed, I held a discussion with my right hon. Friend about the business that he had announced for the following week in which he said that he would have to make a business statement—

Mr. Speaker

Order. The right hon. Gentleman's point of order is a bit long. Perhaps he would like to come to a conclusion.

Mr. Kaufman

I would love to come to a conclusion, Mr. Speaker, but this is a point of order and, that being so, I regard it as my duty to provide the information appropriate for you to be able to give a measured reply. There has—

Mr. Speaker

Order. I have a measured reply.

Mr. Kaufman

In that case, sir, you cannot object to a measured point of order.

There was no further business statement today, Mr. Speaker. Now, I do not ask you, sir, to try to bring some order to the rabble on the Opposition Benches—that would be beyond both the United Nations and the SAS—but I ask you to tell us what is the position of Back-Bench Members of the House who come to take part in a debate that has already been announced, when the Opposition are in such a state of ungovernable confusion that the business is changed with no notification.

Mr. Eric Forth (Bromley and Chislehurst)

Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am sure you will agree that it is essential for the proper working of the House that we have a sensible balance between spontaneity and predictability. I am sure you will further agree that, from time to time, that balance comes under pressure; but I hope that in considering this issue—as you ever do, Mr. Speaker—you and other right hon. and hon. Members will realise that, perhaps in the Opposition's genuine effort to make the proceedings of the House as current, contemporaneous and spontaneous as possible, the Government may be taken by surprise every now and then.

I will certainly want to reflect, along with my colleagues, on the point that the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) makes because there is some substance in what he says, but I know that you will be generous enough, Mr. Speaker—I hope that House will be, too—to accept that it is not necessarily a bad thing if we err on the side of spontaneity at the cost of predictability every now and then.

Mr. Paul Tyler (North Cornwall)

Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker

Order. I will hear the hon. Gentleman and then I will reply to the original point of order—otherwise I might forget it.

Mr. Tyler

You will have noted, Mr. Speaker, that the Conservative party's replacement motion refers to events on Tuesday and Wednesday last week. The right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth) claims spontaneity and topicality, but there is clearly a very curious use of the word "spontaneity" if it took from the middle of the afternoon on Tuesday or Wednesday until six minutes before 3 o'clock on Friday to decide on the motion. If Conservative Members really wanted a topical motion, they should have chosen one on the crisis in the middle east.

Several hon. Members

rose—

Mr. Speaker:

Order. I believe that it is for the general convenience of Members and assists in the orderly dispatch of our business if, in normal circumstances, Members who wish to table motions to which amendments may be expected do so, to use a familiar Scottish expression, timeously. I believe that that should be the general practice of the House, applicable to Government and Opposition alike. As hon. Members will know, I have selected a manuscript amendment to the second Opposition motion today.

Mr. Stephen Pound (Ealing, North)

rose—

Mr. Speaker

I hope that it is not further to that matter.

Mr. Pound

Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. [Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker

Order. We have heard enough on that point of order.

Michael Fabricant (Lichfield)

rose—

Mr. Speaker

Is it is a new point of order?

Michael Fabricant

Not exactly.

Miss Ann Widdecombe (Maidstone and The Weald)

rose—

Mr. Speaker

I am sure that the right hon. Lady wants to continue the argument.

Miss Widdecombe

Very loosely. Mr. Speaker, will you confirm that it is not without precedent for Government and Opposition occasionally to change the business at the last moment, that you and I can recall an occasion when an amendment was withdrawn just minutes before a debate under the last Government and that, therefore, such things are not unprecedented?

Mr. Speaker

It happens, but no one should make a habit of it.

Mrs. Angela Browning (Tiverton and Honiton)

Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Notwithstanding your good advice to the House on this matter, will you confirm that no rule of the House has been broken by the official Opposition?

Mr. Speaker

Of course.

Mr. Barry Gardiner (Brent, North)

Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it not a serious discourtesy to you and other hon. Members, who spend many hours preparing for such debates, for Her Majesty's loyal Opposition to chop and change their minds like a butterfly with a frontal lobotomy?

Mr. Speaker

That is not a point of order.

Michael Fabricant

Would it be of benefit to the House, Mr. Speaker—to older right hon. Members as well as to young whippersnappers—to note that page 918 of the Order Paper shows that the speeches that they have prepared can be used on Tuesday 11 December?

Mr. Speaker

Order.