§ 1. Mr. Robert Maclennan (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)If he will make a statement about the ending of the social security agreement between the United Kingdom and Australia and its effect on pensioners reaching pension age after 28 February 2001 who have spent periods of their working life in Australia. [136106]
§ The Minister of State, Department of Social Security (Mr. Jeff Rooker)People who are already receiving benefit with the help of the agreement with the Australian Government will not be affected when it terminates. We are aware that there are implications for people currently residing in the UK who had previously lived in Australia and are not yet retired. We are actively considering the full implications of the Australian Government's decision, and in particular what we can do to protect the position of those people.
§ Mr. MaclennanMore fundamentally, will not the Government end the discrimination whereby they index-link the British pensions of British pensioners living in the United States and European Union countries, but not those of pensioners living in the Commonwealth countries—Australia, Canada and New Zealand? Will the Government at least make arrangements to protect the thousands of United Kingdom pensioners who will retire after 28 February next year and who are unable to count their years in Australia towards their basic pension, and who do not have the opportunity to supplement their pension?
§ Mr. RookerWe have no plans to change the present policy. I must make that clear, so that we do not give anybody false information. I have already said that we are looking actively at what we can do to protect those people who retire after the agreement finishes at the end of February. A perverse arrangement could come about whereby the UK Government could gain from the change. I do not see that that would be morally justified, so we want to do what we can to protect such people. However, there are a few myths that we must knock on the head. I must tell the right hon. Gentleman that there is no basic 628 state pension in Australia: it is all means-tested. [Interruption.] It is not all means— tested in this country. If the Government did change their policy in respect of Australia, we would be paying to the Australian Treasury. The only people who would gain in Australia are those who are so well off that they do not get the age pension in Australia.
§ Mr. Andrew Mackinlay (Thurrock)What is the justification for the disparity in arrangements between Commonwealth countries, as compared with the United States? There is no logic in it. Is not there a need for a conference of social security Ministers of the key countries where ex-pats live? Is not liberty also involved? People want mobility in retirement, and the current arrangements are an impediment to that, particularly when abroad they can enjoy not necessarily the support of the taxpayer, but the love and succour of their families?
§ Mr. RookerI have already said that I am not prepared to defend the logic of the present situation. It is illogical. There is no consistent pattern. It does not matter whether a country is in the Commonwealth or outside it. We have arrangements with some Commonwealth countries and not with others. Indeed, there are differences among Caribbean countries. This is an historical issue and the situation has existed for years. It would cost some £300 million to change the policy for all concerned. We must also consider that as the European Union expands—pension upratings are, naturally, paid in the EU—the issue will not go away. I accept that.