PROVISION OF SERVICES (Hansard, 27 June 2000)

§ Mr. Boswell
I beg to move amendment No. 78, in page 49, line 38, after 'particular'", insert— ',while having regard to the needs of all young people for access to independent guidance and to a mode of service which is appropriate to their particular circumstances'.

Mr. Deputy Speaker
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 103, in clause 109, page 50, line 21, after 'team', insert— '() a Connexions partnership'. Government amendments Nos. 9 to 12.
No. 8, in clause 117, page 55, line 17, leave out "may" and insert 'shall'.
Government amendments Nos. 13 to 16.
New clause 4—Support for 11–25 year olds: Wales: provision of services— '. The National Assembly may provide or secure the provision of services which the Assembly considers will encourage, enable or assist (directly or indirectly) effective participation by young persons in education or training.'.

§ Mr. Boswell
After those brisk exchanges, I accept, of course, that Ministers wish to act in good faith, and I am sure that their assurances on clause 89 and on the amendment which deals with the Connexions strategy are well intended.
In response to a blunt question in Committee, the Minister has already given me the specific assurance that all young people will have access to independent guidance. I thought it appropriate to try to embody that in the Bill, and, in effect, to help the Minister to honour his assurance. In respect of that and of the second part of that amendment, considerable concerns remain in what might be described as the guidance professions and the careers services. Those have been reflected in representations to us by the Guidance Council and the Careers Service National Association. The concerns were also mentioned 860 earlier by the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Mr. Allan), but I did not intervene then, so as to save time and repetition.
Those in the careers services are concerned that, as a result either of signals from Ministers or of constraints on resources, activity has been diverted to young people who may be, or are in danger of being, socially excluded, at the expense of other young people. Frankly, if the Minister is to solve this problem, he will have to work something out—perhaps, although I anticipate it only in general terms, in the comprehensive spending review—to enable him to deliver a proper service to all young people, and a specific service to those in danger of social exclusion. Of course, he cannot comment on that at the moment.
On the substance of the amendment, we need to ensure that the undertaking that the Minister has given—that all young people will have access to independent guidance—means what it says. Essentially, that means access to a guidance interview, and/or to continuing support from guidance services if that is appropriate.
I believe that all of us who have had children who have passed through that age appreciate that, whatever their intellectual or other abilities, at some stage they need an opportunity to talk to someone outside their school and family who can give them well informed—and above all, independent—advice. That is the great virtue of the guidance and careers profession, and long may it continue.
In certain cases, access to IT information or a database may be appropriate and all that is needed, but in most cases the individual should meet a real person and receive real advice about their circumstances. That is a talisman which we all, on both sides of the House, need to preserve, and it is of great concern to the guidance profession.
In the second part of amendment No. 78, I refer to a mode of service which is appropriate to their particular circumstances … That sounds rather like a piece of Sir Humphrey-speak. Perhaps I may explain what I have in mind, because there is a real issue here about the way in which the Connexions service is delivered.
There is a genuine, although I hope only potential, criticism of a service that is still in its early days of establishment—that everything is focused on the needs of the socially excluded. For example, there is a very strong emphasis on personal mentoring. It would not be appropriate to reopen all those debates tonight, but although the relationship required for the potentially socially excluded young person may be of a mentoring nature, it would be unfortunate if what, for shorthand, I shall call mainstream young people did not have access to a different mode. For example, they could be taught by their teachers, in school or whatever, and then have access to independent guidance, not necessarily on the referral of a mentor but as a procedure that they could ask for or choose.
The danger with the way in which the Government have structured the service is that they require some 20,000 personal mentors. If those are recruited in large numbers from the guidance profession—which, as I recall, numbers some 7,000 staff at the moment—there will be no separate guidance profession left to deliver the independent guidance that we all wish to see. That would cause the independent guidance to fall, by default.
861 It would perhaps be better to move more slowly, and with greater sensitivity to the needs of individuals. There may be a role for the personal mentor, especially for the target groups that Ministers have mentioned, but that does not necessarily mean that the model must be universally applicable to all young people, or must be the same whatever the region or local circumstances. Ministers have talked about that, and I think that they will be flexible in considering the bids for the plans that have been put forward for the Connexions service; the local tendering has now concluded its first phase.
I am not unhopeful, but I say to the Minister in all seriousness that there are still some real concerns in the guidance profession that this matter has not been got quite right yet. We need to hold to the principle of readily accessible independent guidance for all young people, and we need to find the right model of guidance and support for all young people. It will not always be the same for each and every one of them.

§ Mr. Rowlands
I shall speak briefly to my amendment No. 8. Whereas in an earlier debate I said that I thought that the English had a superior solution to some of the problems, in Wales the arrangements for the development of youth services as proposed in clauses 117 and 118 are, if not superior to those proposed for England, at least more appropriate to Wales than the English provisions of Connexions would be. But if we are to make those youth services work, the money must be where the legislation is.
I note with considerable interest that clause 117 says that the National Assembly may direct a local authority to provide such services. It may actually make provision for grants. However, clause 118 states that a local authority shall comply with a direction served by the National Assembly under clause 117.
Amendment No. 8 would require that if the National Assembly for Wales issues such a direction and insists on a local authority's compliance with it, the Assembly "shall" rather than "may" provide the money for the local authority to fulfil that service. Without such a provision, the situation will arise—as it has so often in the past under all Governments—in which increased duties are placed on local authorities without adequate finance.
If, under clause 117, the National Assembly issues a direction to a local authority to provide certain youth services, as clause 118 states that authorities must obey such directions, surely the National Assembly should be obliged to provide the grants, loans or other financial assistance required to deliver the service. There is a compelling logic to my amendment and I hope that the Minister will accept it, so that clause 117(4) reads, "A direction under subsection (1) … shall include provision for grants, loans and other kinds of financial assistance" to local authorities.

§ Mr. Nick St. Aubyn (Guildford)
I support the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry (Mr. Boswell) on a matter that I mentioned on Second Reading. In parts of the country such as the one that I represent, there is real concern that the diversion of 862 resources for an admirable intent—to assist those who are disadvantaged and who perhaps need more help—is at the expense of other sectors of the community.
In a recent letter to me, the Guidance Council said: much of the traditional support available to all young people … has fallen off sharply. Resources have been diverted to the most needy. The council referred to the switch of resources from the many to the few. That is consistent neither with the Government's objectives, as we understand them, nor with the interests of our children or our economy.
In a fast changing world, it is vital that more able children have access to good specialist advice. If such access is curtailed to fund support for the less advantaged members of society, we shall all reap the consequences in the poorer choices made by more able children. If they do not receive the training and direction that they need when they are young, not only their future but the future of our economy will be in jeopardy.

§ Mr. Ian Bruce
My hon. Friend the Member for Guildford (Mr. St. Aubyn) spoke so briefly that I nearly failed to catch your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
I support amendment No. 78. I want to probe the Minister on the age ranges that would be covered under clause 108, especially if the amendment were accepted. Many colleagues are aware that young people with learning difficulties or mental disabilities will be greatly helped by the guidance referred to in the Bill.
I note that the clause relates to young people aged up to 20. However, such an age specification would often be inappropriate for young people receiving those services. The amendment might help local authorities by ensuring that appropriate guidance was available and the clause was not so prescriptive. It would provide that young people aged over 20 whose mental age was not more than 20 could receive further guidance to ensure that they could continue their career or obtain the training that they needed.
Will the Minister address that point? I have come across cases in local technical colleges, for example, in which there is an age cut-off beyond which assistance cannot be offered to such young people, although they are probably more in need of that guidance than their able-bodied counterparts.

§ Mr. Wicks
On the hon. Gentleman's final point, the service for those with learning difficulties will not be restricted to the normal age group of 13 to 19. We shall extend it to those aged up to 25, to help them with transition. That is important.
12.15 am
My hon. Friend the Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Mr. Rowlands) referred to the new local service for young people. I think that the crux of his concern was that suitable resources should be available to get the job done. Clearly, resources will be an important element, and I want to provide the reassurance that they will be available. However, other matters might need to be covered by an Assembly direction under clause 117. Those might, for example, include the need for local authorities and other service providers to have regard to Assembly guidance on consulting young people and on the design of local management services.
863 We discussed the concerns of the hon. Member for Daventry (Mr. Boswell) many times in Committee. The Connexions service for all 13 to 19-year-olds is universal; it is for all in that age group. All the children and young people in the critical teenage years need first-class impartial, independent and expert guidance about learning options at 16 and other stages. They may need guidance about going to university or about the modern apprenticeship scheme, and they may need guidance and advice about careers.
In a modern age, the way in such advice is delivered will vary. We need to make use of information and communications technology and we shall establish a telephone line, Connexions Direct, so that people can receive such advice. However, face-to-face contact is vital, so there will be a universal service for all young people. Special groups, particularly those from poor and disadvantaged backgrounds or those with learning difficulties, will need advice and guidance, but others, such as our most able boys and girls, sometimes need special help to get through school because of their high abilities. I recall that the Select Committee on Education and Employment produced a report on that subject a year or two ago.
The service will be universal because all young people will need it. However, the word mentor has been used, so I shall quote one of my academic mentors, the late Richard Titmuss of the London school of economics. He used to teach his students that if "poor people's services" are just for poor people, they tend to be poor services. Those of us who are universalists remember that. It will be a universal service for all people, because that is the most civilised and dignified way of giving support to the most disadvantaged.