§ Amendment proposed: No. 123, in page 5, line 3, leave out "community rehabilitation" and insert "probation".—[Mr. Hawkins.]
§ Question put, That the amendment be made:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 122, Noes 289.
736| Division No. 227] | [9.45 pm |
| AYES | |
| Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey) | Heathcoat—Amory, Rt Hon David |
| Amess, David | Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas |
| Ancram, Rt Hon Michael | Horam, John |
| Arbuthnot, Rt Hon James | Howard, Rt Hon Michael |
| Atkinson, David (Bour'mth E) | Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot) |
| Atkinson, Peter (Hexham) | Hunter, Andrew |
| Bercow, John | Jack, Rt Hon Michael |
| Beresford, Sir Paul | Jackson, Robert (Wantage) |
| Blunt, Crispin | Jenkin, Bernard |
| Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W) | Key, Robert |
| Bottomley, Rt Hon Mrs Virginia | Kirkbride, Miss Julie |
| Brady, Graham | Laing, Mrs Eleanor |
| Brooke, Rt Hon Peter | Lait, Mrs Jacqui |
| Browning, Mrs Angela | Lansley, Andrew |
| Bruce, Ian (S Dorset) | Letwin, Oliver |
| Burns, Simon | Lidington, David |
| Cash, William | Lilley, Rt Hon Peter |
| Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet) | Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham) |
| Loughton, Tim | |
| Clappison, James | Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas |
| Clark, Dr Michael (Rayleigh) | MacGregor, Rt Hon John |
| Collins, Tim | McIntosh, Miss Anne |
| Cormack, Sir Patrick | Maclean, Rt Hon David |
| Cran, James | McLoughlin, Patrick |
| Davies, Quentin (Grantham) | Malins, Humfrey |
| Davis, Rt Hon David (Haltemprice) | Maples, John |
| Day, Stephen | Mawhinney, Rt Hon Sir Brian |
| Dorrell, Rt Hon Stephen | May, Mrs Theresa |
| Duncan Smith, Iain | Moss, Malcolm |
| Evans, Nigel | Nicholls, Patrick |
| Faber, David | Norman, Archie |
| Fabricant, Michael | Ottaway, Richard |
| Fallon, Michael | Page, Richard |
| Flight, Howard | Paice, James |
| Forth, Rt Hon Eric | Paterson, Owen |
| Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman | Pickles, Eric |
| Fox, Dr Liam | Prior, David |
| Gale, Roger | Randall, John |
| Gibb, Nick | Redwood, Rt Hon John |
| Gill, Christopher | Robathan, Andrew |
| Gorman, Mrs Teresa | Robertson, Laurence |
| Gray, James | Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne) |
| Green, Damian | Rowe, Andrew (Faversham) |
| Greenway, John | Ruffley, David |
| Grieve, Dominic | St Aubyn, Nick |
| Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archie | Sayeed, Jonathan |
| Hammond, Philip | Shephard, Rt Hon Mrs Gillian |
| Hawkins, Nick | Shepherd, Richard |
| Hayes, John | Simpson, Keith (Mid—Norfolk) |
| Heald, Oliver | Soames, Nicholas |
| Spelman, Mrs Caroline | Tyrie, Andrew |
| Spicer, Sir Michael | Walter, Robert |
| Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John | Waterson, Nigel |
| Streeter, Gary | Wells, Bowen |
| Swayne, Desmond | Whitney, Sir Raymond |
| Syms, Robert | Whittingdale, John |
| Tapsell, Sir Peter | Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton) |
| Winterton, Nicholas (Macclesfield) | |
| Taylor, Ian (Esher & Walton) | Yeo Tim |
| Taylor, John M (Solihull) | Young, Rt Hon Sir George |
| Taylor, Sir Teddy | |
| Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion) | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Tredinnick, David | Mr. Peter Luff and |
| Trend, Michael | Mr. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown. |
| NOES | |
| Abbott, Ms Diane | Cryer, Mrs Ann (Keighley) |
| Ainger, Nick | Cryer, John (Hornchurch) |
| Anderson, Donald (Swansea E) | Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try S) |
| Armstrong, Rt Hon Ms Hilary | Curtis—Thomas, Mrs Claire |
| Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy | Dalyell, Tam |
| Ashton, Joe | Darling, Rt Hon Alistair |
| Atherton, Ms Candy | Darvill, Keith |
| Atkins, Charlotte | Davey, Edward (Kingston) |
| Austin, John | Davey, Valerie (Bristol W) |
| Ballard, Jackie | Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli) |
| Bayley, Hugh | Davies, Geraint (Croydon C) |
| Beard, Nigel | Dawson, Hilton |
| Beckett, Rt Hon Mrs Margaret | Dean, Mrs Janet |
| Bell, Martin (Tatton) | Denham, John |
| Benn, Hilary (Leeds C) | Dobbin, Jim |
| Bennett, Andrew F | Donohoe, Brian H |
| Benton, Joe | Doran, Frank |
| Best, Harold | Dowd, Jim |
| Blears, Ms Hazel | Drew, David |
| Blizzard, Bob | Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth |
| Boateng, Rt Hon Paul | Eagle, Angela (Wallasey) |
| Borrow, David | Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston) |
| Bradley, Keith (Withington) | Efford, Clive |
| Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin) | Ellman, Mrs Louise |
| Bradshaw, Ben | Ennis, Jeff |
| Brand, Dr Peter | Etherington, Bill |
| Breed, Colin | Field, Rt Hon Frank |
| Brinton, Mrs Helen | Fisher, Mark |
| Browne, Desmond | Fitzpatrick, Jim |
| Burden, Richard | Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna |
| Butler, Mrs Christine | Flint, Caroline |
| Cable, Dr Vincent | Flynn, Paul |
| Caborn, Rt Hon Richard | Foster, Rt Hon Derek |
| Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V) | Foster, Don (Bath) |
| Caplin, Ivor | Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings) |
| Caton, Martin | Foster, Michael J (Worcester) |
| Cawsey, Ian | Foulkes, George |
| Chapman, Ben (Wirral S) | Galloway, George |
| Chaytor, David | Gardiner, Barry |
| Chidgey, David | Gerrard, Neil |
| Clapham, Michael | Gibson, Dr Ian |
| Clark, Rt Hon Dr David (S Shields) | Gidley, Sandra |
| Clark, Dr Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands) | Godman, Dr Norman A |
| Godsiff, Roger | |
| Clark, Paul (Gillingham) | Goggins, Paul |
| Clarke, Charles (Norwich S) | Gordon, Mrs Eileen |
| Clarke, Rt Hon Tom (Coatbridge) | Griffiths, Jane (Reading E) |
| Clarke, Tony (Northampton S) | Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S) |
| Clelland, David | Griffiths, Win (Bridgend) |
| Clwyd, Ann | Grocott, Bruce |
| Coaker, Vemon | Grogan, John |
| Coffey, Ms Ann | Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale) |
| Coleman, Iain | Hall, Patrick (Bedford) |
| Colman, Tony | Hanson, David |
| Connarty, Michael | Heal, Mrs Sylvia |
| Cook, Frank (Stockton N) | Heath, David (Somerton & Frome) |
| Cooper, Yvette | Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N) |
| Corbett, Robin | Henderson, Ivan (Harwich) |
| Cotter, Brian | Heppell, John |
| Cousins, Jim | Hill, Keith |
| Hinchliffe, David | Morris, Rt Hon Sir John (Aberavon) |
| Hoey, Kate | |
| Hoon, Rt Hon Geoffrey | Mountford, Kali |
| Hope, Phil | Mudie, George |
| Hopkins, Kelvin | Mullin, Chris |
| Howarth, George (Knowsley N) | Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck) |
| Howells, Dr Kim | Murphy, Jim (Eastwood) |
| Hughes, Ms Beverley (Stretford) | Naysmith, Dr Doug |
| Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N) | Norris, Dan |
| Hughes, Simon (Southwark N) | O'Brien, Bill (Normanton) |
| Humble, Mrs Joan | O'Hara, Eddie |
| Hurst, Alan | Olner, Bill |
| Hutton, John | Organ, Mrs Diana |
| Iddon, Dr Brian | Osborne, Ms Sandra |
| Illsley, Eric | Pearson, Ian |
| Jackson, Ms Glenda (Hampstead) | Pickthall, Colin |
| Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough) | Pike Peter L |
| Jamieson David | Plaskitt, James |
| Jenkins, Brian | Pollard, Kerry |
| Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield) | Pond, Chris |
| Pope, Greg | |
| Jones, Helen (Warrington N) | Pound, Stephen |
| Jones Ms Jenny (Wolverh'ton SW) | Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E) |
| Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C) | Prentice, Gordon (Pendle) |
| Jones, Dr Lynne (Selly Oak) | Primarolo, Dawn |
| Keeble, Ms Sally | Prosser, Gwyn |
| Keen, Alan (Feltham & Heston) | Purchase, Ken |
| Keen, Ann (Brentford & Isleworth) | Quin, Rt Hon Ms Joyce |
| Kemp, Fraser | Quinn, Lawrie |
| Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree) | Radice, Rt Hon Giles |
| Khabra, Piara S | Raynsford, Nick |
| Kidney, David | Reid, Rt Hon Dr Jonn (Hamilton N) |
| Kumar, Dr Ashok | Rendel, David |
| Ladyman, Dr Stephen | Roche, Mrs Berbara |
| Lawrence, Mrs Jackie | Rooker, Rt Hon Jeff |
| Lepper, David | Rooney, Terry |
| Leslie, Christopher | Ross, Ernie (Dundee W) |
| Levitt, Tom | Rowlands, Ted |
| Lewis, Ivan (Bury S) | Ruddock, Joan |
| Lewis, Terry (Worsley) | Russell, Bob (Colchester) |
| Linton, Martin | Russell, Ms Christine (Chester) |
| Love, Andrew | Ryan, Ms Joan |
| McAllion, John | Salter, Martin |
| McAvoy, Thomas | Savidge, Malcolm |
| McCabe, Steve | Sedgemore, Brian |
| McCafferty, Ms Chris | Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S) |
| McCartney, Rt Hon Ian (Makerfield) | Singh, Marsha |
| Skinner, Dennis | |
| McDonagh, Siobhain | Smith Angela (Basildon) |
| McDonnell, John | Smith, Miss Geraldine (Morecambe & Lunesdale) |
| McGuire, Mrs Anne | |
| McIsaac, Shona | Smith, Jacqui (Redditch) |
| McKenna, Mrs Rosemary | Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns) |
| Mackinlay, Andrew | Soley, Clive |
| McNulty, Tony | Squire, Ms Rachel |
| MacShane, Denis | Starkey, Dr Phyllis |
| McWilliam, John | Steinberg, Gerry |
| Mahon, Mrs Alice | Stevenson, George |
| Mallaber, Judy | |
| Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S) | Stewart, Ian (Eccles) |
| Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury) | Stoate, Dr Howard |
| Marshall—Andrews, Robert | Stuart, Ms Gisela |
| Martlew, Eric | Stunell, Andrew |
| Meale, Alan | Sutcliffe, Gerry |
| Merron, Gillian | Taylor, Rt Hon Mrs Ann (Dewsbury) |
| Michael, Rt Hon Alun | |
| Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley) | Taylor, Ms Dari (Stockton S) |
| Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll & Bute) | Temple—Morris, Peter |
| Miller, Andrew | Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W) |
| Mitchell, Austin | Timms, Stephen |
| Moonie, Dr Lewis | Tipping, Paddy |
| Moore, Michael | Todd, Mark |
| Moran, Ms Margaret | Tonge, Dr Jenny |
| Morley, Elliot | Touhig, Don |
| Trickett, Jon | Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W) |
| Truswell, Paul | |
| Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE) | Williams, Alan W (E Carmarthen) |
| Turner, Dr Desmond (Kemptown) | Wills, Michael |
| Turner, Dr George (NW Norfolk) | Willson, Brian |
| Turner, Neil (Wigan) | Winnick, David |
| Twigg, Derek (Halton) | Wood, Mike |
| Twigg, Stephens (Enfield) | Woodward, Shaun |
| Walley, Ms Joan | Worthington, Tony |
| Ward, Ms Claire | Wray, James |
| Ward, Ms Claire | Wright, Anthony D (Gt Yarmouth) |
| Wareing, Robert N | Wright, Dr Tony (Cannock) |
| Watts, David | Wyatt, Derek |
| Webb, Steve | |
| White, Brian | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Whitehead, Dr Alan | Mr. Graham Allen and |
| Wicks, Malcolm | Mr. Robert Ainsworth. |
§ Question accordingly negatived.
§ Mr. HawkinsI beg to move amendment No. 124, in page 5, line 11, at end insert—
'(4) Before giving approval to a hostel or other premises under subsection (1), the Secretary of State must be satisfied that the local community has been adequately consulted about the establishment of the hostel or other premises and that arrangements are in place for liaison with the local community about the operation of the hostel or other premises after approval is given.'.We raised this issue in some detail in Committee because several hon. Members on both sides of the Committee had had experience of controversies about the establishment of bail or probation hostels in their constituencies. I was involved in a significant dispute about a proposal for such a hostel in which members from all three main political parties joined in a campaign to stop a wholly unsuitable property being used for a probation and bail hostel, so I am well aware of the strong feelings that can be engendered.In the case with which I was involved, a decision was made not to establish the hostel, but it took a long and concerted campaign with all-party support before that decision was made. There was much protest because the building involved was on the route that parents with very young children used on their way to and from nursery and other schools. It was proposed that serious offenders, including some who had been convicted of serious offences against children, should be put in that hostel, but it was clear that the wrong site had been chosen. It was not a "not in my backyard" dispute. Most of the campaigners freely conceded that—
It being Ten o'clock, the debate stood adjourned.
Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 15 (Exempted business),
That, at this day's sitting, the Criminal Justice and Court Services Bill may be proceeded with, though opposed, until any hour.—[Mr. Jamieson.]Question agreed to.As amended in the Standing Committee, again considered.
Question again proposed, That the amendment be made.
§ Mr. HawkinsThe case was one in which most of those who opposed the use of that property accepted the need for a bail or probation hostel somewhere, but felt that the wrong site had been chosen. In Committee, it was made clear that my hon. Friend the Member for 737 Mid-Worcestershire (Mr. Luff) had had similar experiences, and other hon. Members had also faced similar challenges. In the case in which I had some involvement, some of those who were not then Members of Parliament—such as the now hon. Member for Blackpool, North and Fleetwood (Mrs. Humble)—were involved when they were in local government, so this matter concerns all parties.
In Committee, Ministers recognised that serious issues needed to be confronted, and they dealt constructively with the debate at that stage in the Bill's proceedings. I hope that we will receive a similarly constructive response from the Government tonight. I claim no particular magic in the wording that we have chosen in the amendment—we simply wish to raise the issue again—because, perhaps in the other place, others may have views.
We want to keep the issue alive, because we should like the Bill in its final form to contain a provision along the lines of that contained in our amendment. We want to see some recognition, if necessary through a differently worded Government amendment, of the need to consult the local community. Concerns were expressed on both sides of the Committee—and they are concerns shared by hon. Members from many different political parties whenever bail and probation hostels are proposed. I hope that the Minister will be able to respond positively.
§ Mr. BoatengWe had a good debate around the issue in Committee and I do not intend to replicate that tonight by rehearsing all the arguments. However, few hon. Members, in their constituency capacity, will not have had to wrestle with such issues at some time. Undoubtedly, such matters can provoke real dissension and fracturing in the local community.
We all know that hostels, and those who work in them, play a vital role in protecting the public and in rehabilitation. Often that is an unsung and thankless task, and tonight we can give some due recognition to the front-line workers in the probation and related services who do that valuable work.
In responding to this debate, I have in mind the need to ensure that we do nothing that undermines the work of those front-line hostel workers and their management committees, because it is difficult enough at the best of times without being plunged into the midst of community dissension. We must also approach this topic with due caution, so as not to do anything that would undermine the integrity of the local planning process. However exasperating that may be from time to time for Members of Parliament, it is in the end our surest protection in terms of the balance of our various responsibilities between national Government and national representation on one hand, and local government and local representation on the other.
For that reason, I cannot accept the amendment as drafted. It would impose two parallel and coterminous duties on two Secretaries of State: the Secretary of State for the Environment, Transport and the Regions, who is responsible for the planning process, and the Secretary of State for the Home Department, who is responsible for the approved hostel process. That can only be confusing 738 and unsatisfactory and act as a potential cause of division, when we should be doing everything possible to encourage joined-up, not splintered, government.
§ Mr. HawkinsIn his final phrase, the Minister made the point that I intended to make. Surely. if the Government genuinely believe in joined-up government and joined-up thinking, not merely as rhetoric, but as reality, they will perceive an advantage in thus linking the responsibilities of the Secretary of State for the Environment, Transport and the Regions and the Secretary of State for the Home Department.
§ Mr. BoatengThe responsibilities involved are distinct, but related: one for the planning process, the other for the approved hostel process. The planning process is a statutory process and therefore has to be a statutory responsibility. The approved hostel process is one in which, as a matter of policy, the Secretary of State for the Home Department approves a specific hostel for the purposes laid down in statute; that approval is carried out on the basis of policy guidance, so it is an administrative, not a statutory, process. I assure the House that that policy guidance requires checks to be made to ensure that appropriate consultation has taken place. Our best defence lies in ensuring that the policy guidance is adequate and appropriate in terms of the consultative process to be undertaken, and in so doing ensuring that the respective roles of different Secretaries of State are not confused.
My second concern, which I am sure the House will share, relates to the definition of "community". In the context of the amendment, it is vague and non-specific. If the consultation were too extensive or drawn too widely, the result might be to encourage nimbyism, which is already a problem. No new hostel would ever be approved, because it would be bound to alienate someone, or be opposed by some interest or individual. The judgment on how broadly to consult is best determined locally, by those who are closest to and best understand the local community. That is not to say that consultation is not a vital task; it is, and it must be carried out with care and sensitivity. However, I do not believe that we shall be doing our constituents any favours if we impose on the whole process the additional burdens contained in the amendment.
We must be careful not to undermine the thrust of Government policy. Let me give an example of how that might, inadvertently, be the result of the amendment's being accepted. Suppose that a voluntary organisation was already operating in an area, working with a hostel that already had all the relevant planning approvals. Along comes the Secretary of State for the Home Department, seeking to make the hostel an approved hostel. Were the amendment to be accepted, the organisation running the hostel—say, the National Association for the Care and Resettlement of Offenders—would have to open fresh consultation on whether it should become an approved hostel. In such circumstances, it might be difficult to persuade voluntary sector organisations to enter into partnerships with the Home Office or the national probation service for England and Wales to deliver hostel accommodation in the right place to meet the purposes of rehabilitation and public protection.
Once the hostel is operating it is much better to leave liaison with the community to those with responsibility for running the hostel. Certainly, they need guidance for 739 that, and they should involve Members of Parliament, local councillors, the immediate neighbours, relevant local community organisations and the police
We should be travelling down that road of more effective liaison, consultation and guidance, rather than down the road of statutory duties, which could open up the possibility of the confusion of roles that I outlined, act as a deterrent to voluntary organisations entering into partnership, as I described, and, horror upon horrors, open up the possibility of yet more legal challenges to the adequacy of arrangements, resulting in undue expense and delay.
I understand why the hon. Gentleman moved the amendment. Every constituency Member knows of the difficulties that can arise. I shall reflect on whether we could do more by way of administrative guidance on the matter. It is an area worth exploring, and we may need to return to it. However, I ask the House not to go down the statutory route proposed by the amendment.
§ Mr. HawkinsI recognise and welcome the Minister's constructive comments, particularly at the end of his remarks. In the light of his helpful indication that the Government will continue to keep the matter under review, and examine the guidance to see whether more can be done, I shall seek leave to withdraw the amendment, with one proviso: the matter may be debated further in another place, and we may table an amendment with slightly different wording, to see whether by then the Government will accept it. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.