§ 31. Mr. Simon Hughes (Southwark, North and Bermondsey)What account is taken of the projected level of state pensions in calculating the projected level of clergy pensions. [128227]
§ Mr. Stuart Bell (Second Church Estates Commissioner, representing the Church Commissioners)I nearly said that I refer the hon. Gentleman to the answer that I gave earlier.
The projected level of state pensions is one of a number of factors taken into account by the Church in establishing the formula for determining the full basic rate of clergy pension and retirement lump sum. Those factors include receipt in retirement of a state pension and also the need to meet the cost of housing. For those in office, however, housing is provided in addition to a stipend.
§ Mr. HughesI nearly said that I did not know my question was so difficult. However, although clergy are expected to have some vocation for their jobs, is it the Church's policy that the income and pensions of clergy should bear some relationship to average incomes and pensions in England? If not, why not?
§ Mr. BellThe hon. Gentleman, as usual, puts a friendly, kindly and complex question. We are cognisant of the need to be sure that pensions and lump sums on retirement are related to what is happening in the outside world. The pensioner retirement lump sum is related to the national minimum stipend—the full basic rate of pension is two thirds of the previous year's figure for the national minimum, and the lump sum is three times the pension. The answer might be on the subtle side, but I hope that it is clear.
§ Mr. John Wilkinson (Ruislip-Northwood)Might not the Church Commissioners obviate the need for paying pensions so early and thereby be able to pay a better lump sum on termination of service, and a higher pension, if clergy were able to serve beyond the normal retirement age of 70? Is it not the case that many parishes have to go without a parish priest when a perfectly good, able-bodied clergyman has to retire, perhaps against his will, at the arbitrary age of 70? The Church should be beyond ageism.
§ Mr. BellI am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. He makes a valid point, which I shall be glad to take back to the Church Commissioners.