HC Deb 04 July 2000 vol 353 cc206-12 '.—(1) Subject to subsections (4) and (6), the National Assembly for Wales may by order amend, repeal, revoke or disapply any enactment to which subsection (2) applies so far as that enactment has effect in relation to a local authority in Wales. (2) This subsection applies to—
  1. (a) section 49(1)(c) of the Environmental Protection Act 1990,
  2. (b) section 2 of the Home Energy Conservation Act 1995,
  3. (c) section 84(2)(b) of the Environment Act 1995,
  4. (d) any other enactment (whenever passed or made) which—
    1. (i) requires a local authority to prepare, produce or publish any plan or strategy relating to any particular matter, and
    2. (ii) is specified in an order made by the Secretary of State under this subsection.
 (3) The power under subsection (1) may be exercised in relation to—
  1. (a) all local authorities in Wales,
  2. (b) particular local authorities in Wales, or
  3. (c) particular descriptions of local authority in Wales.
 (4) The power under subsection (1) may be exercised in relation to a local authority only if the National Assembly for Wales considers—
  1. (a) that it is not appropriate for any such enactment as is mentioned in that subsection to apply to the authority, or
  2. (b) that any such enactment should be amended so that it operates more effectively in relation to the authority.
 (5) The power under subsection (1) to amend or disapply an enactment includes a power to amend or disapply an enactment for a particular period. (6) An order under subsection (2)(d)(ii) which specifies any enactment may provide that the power under subsection (1) may be exercised in relation to that enactment only if the National Assembly for Wales complies with any conditions specified in the order. (7) In this section "enactment" includes an enactment comprised in subordinate legislation (within the meaning of the Interpretation Act 1978).'.—[Mr. Hanson.]

Brought up, and read the First time.

5.58 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. David Hanson)

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael Lord)

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: new clause 6—Exercise of power under section 5— —(1) A local authority may submit a proposal to the Secretary of State that the power under section 5 should be exercised in relation to that authority in accordance with that proposal. (2) The Secretary of State may be regulations make provision for or in connection with the submission of an application by a local authority under subsection (1) above. (3) Regulations under this section may include provision—

  1. (a) for the information required in any application;
  2. (b) for a local authority to show it has the capacity to give effect to the proposals;
  3. (c) for a timetable for consideration of a proposal;
  4. (d) for consultation with representatives of local government upon the proposals;
  5. (e) for independent assessment of a proposal;
  6. (f) for reasons to be given when an application is unsuccessful.'.
Amendment No. 16, in clause 5, page 3, line 21, at beginning insert— '( ) A local authority may apply to the Secretary of State to amend, repeal, revoke, or disapply an enactment (whenever passed or made) which it considers prevents or obstructs it from exercising its power under section 2(1)'. Amendment No. 17, in page 3, line 21, after "thinks", insert— ', whether or not on the application of a local authority,'. Amendment No. 18, in page 3, line 24, at end insert— '( ) Before exercising the power under subsection (1) the Secretary of State shall consult representatives of local government and such persons as he feels appropriate.'. Government amendment No. 100.

Mr. Hanson

Clause 6 confers a power on the Secretary of State by order to amend, repeal, revoke or disapply any enactment, whenever passed or made, that requires a local authority to prepare, produce or publish any plan or strategy relating to any particular matter. New clause 8 and amendment No. 100 make provision for the exercise of that power by the National Assembly for Wales. In doing so, they seek to balance the Assembly's legitimate desire to have a degree of control over legislation affecting Welsh authorities while reflecting that this House and Parliament retain primacy in relation to primary legislation.

New clause 8 states that the Assembly may exercise the powers in clause 6 in relation to the plans specified in subsection (2). That covers issues relating to air quality, energy conservation and waste disposal. The plans concern specific policy issues that have been devolved to the National Assembly, and the Government consider that the Assembly should be able to determine how local authorities in Wales should exercise their responsibilities in relation to those issues. The list in subsection (2) is not comprehensive, and subsection (2)(d) provides for the Secretary of State to specify further plans over which the Assembly can exercise powers under clause 6 in due course.

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Amendment No. 100 makes provision for the role of the Assembly in relation to the powers contained in new clause 6. It ensures that the Secretary of State will consult the Assembly before using his powers in clause 6 in a way that affects local authorities in Wales, and that no changes can be made to the Assembly's own legislation without its full consent. It also provides the Assembly with powers to submit proposals to the Secretary of State in order to make changes to planning requirements which are not contained in subsection (2) of the new clause. The amendments represent a sensible division of responsibility between the National Assembly and Parliament.

Grouped with these amendments are new clause 6, which was tabled by the hon. Member for Bath (Mr. Foster), and amendments Nos. 16, 17 and 18, which were tabled by the official Opposition. I will potentially listen to the Opposition's points but, briefly, all four amendments are, I hope, unnecessary. Local authorities can already make proposals to the Secretary of State. Indeed, my hon. Friends are actively encouraging them to do so through a range of initiatives. We have made it clear that we will look very closely at any proposals that come out of those initiatives, just as we will consider carefully and respond to proposals from any other local authority. I therefore hope that there is no question of any proposals being ignored.

In the interests of time and given that many of the scrutineers—having argued for a considerable period about scrutiny of the Bill—have now disappeared from the Chamber, I shall commend the Government amendments and hope that the House will agree to them.

Mr. Don Foster (Bath)

We are more than happy to support the Government new clause, which gives important recognition to the work of the National Assembly for Wales. I wish to speak predominantly, but briefly, to new clause 6. I noted the Minister's rather strange use of the phrase, "I will potentially listen". I think that I am quoting him correctly.

Mr. Hanson

I said, "I will particularly listen".

Mr. Foster

If the Minister checks the record he will see that he said, "I will potentially listen." I hope that he will listen to the arguments and, while I suspect that I may not persuade him to accept the precise wording of new clause 6, I hope that he might be able to add some words of encouragement to the points that I shall raise.

The House will be aware that, under part I, all local councils will be given potentially important new powers on well-being. Liberal Democrat Members welcome those powers very much indeed and, with the Government, recognise that from time to time an existing piece of legislation may get in the way of local authorities exercising those powers in the way that they think appropriate. Clause 5 therefore gives the Secretary of State the power to amend, repeal, revoke or disapply enactments that may get in the way of an individual council, all councils or particular groups of councils. We welcome the fact that the Secretary of State is to have that power.

Our concern is simply this: it is right and appropriate for an individual council that believes that a particular enactment is getting in the way of it fulfilling its new powers under the well-being clause to be able to go to the Secretary of State and seek his support for changes or revocations of that enactment. On 11 May, the Under-Secretary of State for the Environment, Transport and the Regions, the hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston (Ms Hughes), said: The Government have established the central-local partnership, a regular and formal meeting of local government representatives and Ministers not only from my Department, but across Government. That is the proper vehicle through which the experiences of local authorities can be discussed and brought to the attention of the Secretary of State.—[Official Report, Standing Committee A, 11 May 2000; c. 114.] We accept that that is one vehicle which enables councils to draw their concerns to the attention of the Secretary of State. However, we believe that there should be a bottom-up approach, in which an individual council should be able to go directly to the Secretary of State and not through the central-local partnership route. New clause 6 merely gives effect to the desire that an individual council should be able to go and discuss its concerns directly with the Secretary of State and seek his support for its wish to make changes to existing enactments.

If the Minister is not prepared to accept the particular formulation of new clause 6, I hope that he will be able to put clearly on the record that individual councils will have the opportunity sought by the new clause, regardless of whether that is included in the Bill or simply a matter of him giving that assurance.

Mr. Simon Thomas (Ceredigion)

First, I acknowledge the fact that the Government are doing right by new clause 8, which is the correct way forward in the existing constitutional and devolutionary arrangements between the National Assembly and this House. However, there was scope for the Government to go a little further, as the Minister is well aware. He will also be aware that Members of the National Assembly shared disappointment across the Assembly Floor in response to the statement from the Local Government Secretary, Peter Law, this afternoon.

For future reference, it is important to note some areas in which the Assembly is closely involved in local government in Wales, such as European development plans—the process for which will shortly restart in Wales—best value plans, local education plans and so on. By virtue of the fact that local government in Wales is a devolved matter and by virtue of the developing role of the National Assembly for Wales, such matters could in time—and perhaps even now, under the Bill, have come under the aegis—[Interruption.] I am pleased to hear from a sedentary intervention that those things will happen, as it is in those areas that local government most interacts with local people, and through which local people see their values and aspirations put into print in local government documents and reflected in priorities that the National Assembly for Wales may well take forward.

Many people in Wales want and expect to see that sort of thing emerge in the fullness of time from the Bill and the new arrangements for local government in Wales. However, there is some disappointment that the new clause, as presently constituted, does not take a wider approach to some possibilities for devolution and local government in Wales. We were told that, together, the Labour Administration at the National Assembly and the Labour Government in London would always ensure the best possible co-operation at every stage of devolution. That does not always seem to be the way because, for whatever reason—and perhaps the problem is with Government Departments, rather than Government Ministers—there are entrenched ways and, occasionally, a rather slow approach to developing local government in Wales.

The new clause is rather disappointing for what it leaves out. However, it is to be welcomed for what it includes, which is probably the minimum necessary to ensure a balanced set of powers in the Bill. However, from the Welsh perspective it is a rather poor start to consideration of the Bill. I very much hope that the power that the Bill gives the Secretary of State—which is given to the Secretary of State for the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions, not a Secretary at the National Assembly—will include other plans which, when the time comes, will be used in an active and pro-active way.

Peter Law himself said that he is under the impression that devolution is outside the radar of the DETR. On occasion, it is not so much outside the radar as that the radars, seemingly, are not pointing in the right direction. I hope that they will in future.

Mr. Nigel Waterson (Eastbourne)

I have news for the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr. Thomas): DETR does not possess any radar—at least, not in my experience.

It will not have escaped the attention of right hon. and hon. Members that the time taken by the debate on the programme motion—which is of course taken out of the time for debating these important provisions—was 53 minutes, which is well over half the time allotted for substantive debate on the first two groups of amendments.

I shall deal first with Government new clause 8, although I shall speak primarily to the Opposition amendments. The new clause seems straightforward and is linked with Government amendment No. 100. These matters clearly arise from devolution, and I do not want to get into a debate about that. I am puzzled about why the need for the changes was not spotted before, because it seems fairly obvious.

One loses count, but I think that new clause 8 is one of 115 new clauses and amendments that the Government have tabled on Report. The only good news is that as the Bill bounces back and forth between here and the other place, the Government will have ample opportunity to rewrite it at least a couple more times. Although I do not query the sense of the new clause, I wonder why it has been unleashed on an unsuspecting House at this late stage.

I hope that Liberal Democrat Members will not mind if I do not speak to new clause 6, which has broadly the same thrust as our amendments—which deal with a point that we debated briefly in Committee. We have tabled amendments similar to those that we tabled in Committee simply because Ministers were not prepared to accept those amendments any more than they are prepared to accept these.

As hon. Members have pointed out, the Bill gives the Secretary of State significant powers to amend, repeal, revoke or disapply an Act in pursuance of the new well-being power. Given that the power is meant to be a benefit to local authorities, however, it strikes us as slightly eccentric that the Bill does not make it clear that local authorities should be consulted and that they can apply to the Secretary of State for him to exercise his powers. The thrust of our amendments, like our amendments in Committee, is to allow local authorities to initiate that process and ask the Secretary of State to disapply certain enactments that are getting in the way of exercising the new power.

That approach is supported by the Local Government Association, which said that it would support a procedure that would allow authorities, by declaration, to state that all or some of their statutory plans were covered by their community strategy. It was in that spirit that we tabled the amendments in Committee.

If that approach is not a problem, one wonders why Ministers were not prepared to accept the amendments. If they have every intention of consulting local authorities, as they say—we accept what they say, because we know that they are enthusiastic consulters—and of permitting local authorities to apply to the Secretary of State to initiate the process, why not say so in the Bill? I do not see what the problem is. As in Committee, we will not be pressing the amendments to a vote, but there are important questions that the Minister needs to answer.

Mr. Hanson

If, at the beginning of my earlier remarks, I said that I would "potentially" listen, I must point out that I meant to say "particularly", and I apologise.

I hope that I will be able to reassure the hon. Members for Eastbourne (Mr. Waterson) and for Bath (Mr. Foster). I said earlier that new clause 6 and amendments Nos. 16 to 18 are unnecessary, and I meant that in a positive way. Local authorities can already make proposals to the Secretary of State; indeed, as I have said, we actively encourage them to do so, and both hon. Gentlemen recognised that.

We shall discuss with the Local Government Association and, perhaps, the Welsh Local Government Association, formal arrangements for regular consideration of the use of the powers through the central-local partnership. It is important to highlight the availability of clauses 5 and 6 powers in the statutory guidance on the use of the well-being power and community strategies. That would provide a clear and permanent reminder to local authorities that they can apply to the Secretary of State at any time. I say to the hon. Member for Bath that there is nothing to stop an individual council making proposals to the Secretary of State at any time. I am sure that my hon. Friends will welcome that positive provision for England.

On amendment No. 18 in the name of the hon. Member for Eastbourne, clause 8 already requires the Secretary of State to consult local authorities and local government on proposals to use his clauses 5 and 6 powers. The amendment is therefore otiose. I hope that the hon. Gentleman accepts that explanation.

6.15 pm

The discussion has been interesting and I accept the point made by the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr. Thomas). I welcome his positive approach to the Government new clause and amendment. As part of my duties, I watched the statement being made in the National Assembly this afternoon, and I watched with interest the important debate that followed.

Understandably, the Assembly seeks the greatest possible scope to exercise secondary legislation powers. It is the Government's job to propose how the Assembly's wishes can be reconciled with the role of Parliament in introducing primary legislation, and that is what our amendments seek to do. I say to the hon. Gentleman that the door is not closed. The Assembly Secretary, Peter Law, confirmed in his statement that he is and will continue to be in dialogue with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales, myself and colleagues in DETR and other Departments with potential involvement in the powers.

Mr. Llew Smith (Blaenau Gwent)

My hon. Friend said that he understood why the Assembly wanted more powers. Does he think that before it pushes for more powers, it should consider those that it already has, such as the power to make a bonfire of quangos, as it promised to do? Will my hon. Friend confirm whether there has been a bonfire of quangos? If so, when and where did it happen? If not, why has the Assembly not used the powers at its disposal to democratise government in Wales and to increase the power of local government?

Mr. Hanson

My hon. Friend raises an interesting point. In passing the Government of Wales Act 1998, there was a desire, which I share, to ensure that we democratise quangos in Wales. He and I, and the House, will have to judge in due course the extent to which the National Assembly has achieved that objective. In response to the Assembly Secretary's statement this afternoon, my hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham (Dr. Marek), who is also an Assembly Member, made the same point as my hon. Friend the Member for Blaenau Gwent (Mr. Smith), and said that the Assembly should make good use of its existing powers before taking on new ones.

I hope that hon. Members can accept the new clause, and that I have been able to reassure the hon. Members for Bath and for Eastbourne that the Government are willing to listen to them. I thank the hon. Member for Ceredigion for his welcome for the Government's steps to date. Obviously, we may return to this matter in future.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause read a Second time, and added to the Bill.

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