PROVISION OF CRYPTOGRAPHY SUPPORT SERVICES

HC Deb 25 January 2000 vol 343 cc170-2

Mr. Duncan

I beg to move amendment No. 11, in page 6, line 1, leave out subsection (2) and insert— (2) References in this Part to the provision of cryptography support services exclude the supply of computer hardware or software, or the right to use them, except where that supply is an integral part of cryptography support services supplied by the same provider.".

Mr. Deputy Speaker

With this, it will be convenient to discuss the following: Government amendments Nos. 13 and 14.

Mr. Duncan

It would appear that the outbreak of sweet reason has hit the House once again, so the previous occasion was not unique. The amendment, once again, originated from this side of the House, and the Minister listened to the point that we were making. Our concern is that clause 6(2) is almost incomprehensible. I will not read it to the House, but anyone trying to interpret the contents of the Bill in future would have a great deal of difficulty. Amendment No. 11 would tidy up the clause and make it comprehensible.

In Committee, the Minister undertook to consult ever-helpful parliamentary draftsmen further to discover whether the drafting of the clause could be simplified".—[Official Report, Standing Committee B, 14 December 1999; c. 54–5.] I recognise that the group contains two Government amendments that address exactly the same point, but in a slightly different way. In addition, the Government have the benefit of the advice of parliamentary draftsmen and the Minister's experts—advice which Opposition Members so often lack.

When the moment comes, I may wish to withdraw my amendment, once I hear from the Minister exactly what the effect of the Government amendments will be. I expect them to be almost identical in effect to mine.

Mr. Allan

I, too, welcome the amendments, particularly Nos. 13 and 14. They deal with one of the areas in which we shared the concern of the hon. Member for Rutland and Melton (Mr. Duncan) in Committee. Not only was the clause confusing, but its logic was reversed. As we explored the clause in Committee, we discovered that the Government intended to ensure that the Bill referred to cryptography service providers and that hardware and software regulation should not be introduced unless that was a core part of the cryptography service.

By including references to supply of hardware and software, the effect of the clause appeared to be reversed. Amendment No. 13 makes that exclusive rather than inclusive, which I think quite sensible. I shall not get into logical uses of "or" and "and", because we spent plenty of time on that in Committee.

This is a deregulatory success. Amendment No. 13 adds two words; amendment No. 14 adds nine, but removes 21. By my inclusive or exclusive mathematics, I calculate that we have taken 10 words out of the Bill, which is a success in itself. However, I invite the Minister to consider whether she can go further and take out another six words. I refer to the phrase at the end of clause 6(2): not consisting in such a supply. Amendments Nos. 13 and 14 will get the clause broadly right; they make a lot of sense. But I query whether that phrase, hanging on at the end of the sentence, is really necessary. I invite the Minister to ensure that the Bill eventually has as few words as possible so that lawyers can make as little money as possible arguing about the significance of those that it does contain.

Ms Hewitt

As the hon. Member for Rutland and Melton (Mr. Duncan) said in moving his amendment, we had another very useful debate in Committee on subsection (2). As both he and the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Mr. Allan) have indicated, there was agreement across the Committee about the intention of the original clause. I said that I would reconsider the wording and have, as a result, come forward with amendments Nos. 13 and 14.

Our amendments reinforce and clarify the purpose of the subsection, which is to explain that the supply of software and hardware is not included within the meaning of the cryptographic support service, unless the supply of the hardware or software is integral to the provision of the service. As the hon. Member for Rutland and Melton pointed out, the new wording proposed in the two Government amendments significantly and helpfully clarifies that extremely important subsection.

5 pm

The hon. Member for Hallam asked why we cannot simply drop from the end of the subsection the words not consisting in such a supply". I asked my officials the same question when I was considering the amendments. If we abandoned those words, the problem is that we would end up with a completely circular definition of cryptography support services.

I offer the House the helpful example that was provided for me by my officials—it relates to chocolates. If I were to say that references to the provision of chocolates do not include references to the supply of coffee creams, except where that is integral to the provision of the chocolates not consisting in such a supply, coffee creams would not be included unless they were supplied as part of a wider range. That is what we are doing in the measure, but if those crucial words at the end of subsection (2) were omitted, the lawyers would go round in circles.

The clause, as redrafted by the two Government amendments, achieves its purpose in the simplest and most elegant form and with the fewest possible words. In the light of that explanation, I am sure that the hon. Member for Rutland and Melton will want to withdraw his amendment.

Mr. Duncan

I have been thinking about lots of things, but as the Minister has mentioned chocolates, perhaps, one day, I shall deliver her a box of chocolates by dramatically swinging through a window—as in the famous advert.

The Minister's support, in principle, for our proposals is right. We accept that the Government's amendments meet the requirements set out in our amendment, and we support the Government' s amendments. I therefore beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendments made: No. 13, in page 6, line 2, after "service" insert "do not".

No. 14, in page 6, line 3, leave out from "hardware" to "of in line 4 and insert— except where the supply is integral to the provision".—[Ms Hewitt.]