§ 2. Mr. David Chidgey (Eastleigh)By what date he estimates the police forces of England and Wales will have returned police strength to March 1997 levels; and if he will make a statement. [116786]
§ The Minister of State, Home Office (Mr. Charles Clarke)We anticipate that the impact of our crime fighting fund, which was announced last October, and the additional allocation of resources in the Budget, to which my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary referred, will enable police numbers to reach their March 1997 level at or before the end of a full five-year parliamentary term.
§ Mr. ChidgeyDoes the hon. Gentleman find it difficult to persuade my constituents and others that the information that police numbers in England and Wales will not be restored to the level that existed in 1997 under the previous Administration is not at odds with the election pledge of more bobbies on the beat? In particular, does he find it difficult to explain to my constituents in Hampshire that although our chief constable recently put in a bid under the crime fighting fund for more police officers, a 10 per cent. slice was taken off the top? My constituents do not want officers simply to replace those that we used to have; they want more officers to fight crime on the streets in our towns and villages.
§ Mr. ClarkeWe are focused on having more operational police, in the way that the hon. Gentleman describes. As he has referred to his constituents, I draw his attention to the situation in Hampshire, where, although police numbers have declined by 41 to 3,411 since March 1997, civilian support staff numbers have increased by 87 over the same period. The increase in civilian numbers is significant. It includes operational posts such as scene-of-crime and fingerprint officers, and is the result of the chief constable's judgment of how to get best value in reducing crime in his county.
The hon. Gentleman will know that crime in Hampshire decreased by 4.5 per cent. in the 12 months to October 1999. For that achievement, I pay tribute to the chief constable and his force, who have been working to fight crime, rather than trying to score cheap points in party political debate.
§ Sir Sydney Chapman (Chipping Barnet)Does the Minister agree that even if police numbers are falling, it is essential to keep to the minimum number of police per shift, and not to breach it? That has obviously happened in Barnet over the past few months, with only 22 policemen on a shift instead of the minimum 32. Does the hon. Gentleman see any parallel between that diminishing number of police on the beat—he must address that problem, and I know that he wants to—and the turnaround in crime in the metropolis, which increased by 8.5 per cent. last year after six years of reduction?
§ Mr. ClarkeThe hon. Gentleman and I discussed that issue in detail during the debate on the police grant. I answered his points then, and my right hon. Friend the 5 Home Secretary, too, has addressed them directly. We are focused on getting more operational police in Barnet, and everywhere else in the metropolitan area, by the means that we have described, which my right hon. Friend discussed a moment ago.
§ Mr. Peter L. Pike (Burnley)Does my hon. Friend agree that not only police numbers in separate forces, but the way in which those police officers are used, is important? Will he note the fact that the police in my area have managed to get 14 extra officers on the beat in Burnley and Padiham without receiving any extra resources?
§ Mr. ClarkeMy hon. Friend is correct, which is why it was decided—rightly, in my opinion—to give chief constables operational responsibility to decide how to use their resources, rather than having the Home Secretary specify establishment numbers. Increased investment in technology, modernisation of the criminal justice system, and more effective partnerships such as those with which his force in Lancashire is taking a lead, are the ways to achieve more effective operational policing. I would like much more of the debate to focus on those aspects, because that is what the people of this country want.
§ Mr. Michael Fabricant (Lichfield)I thank the Government, and the Minister in particular, for giving Staffordshire police the extra money for 83 more police officers, but does he not realise that that comes on top of a cut of 250, for which the Government will be condemned? He blandly says to the hon. Member for Burnley (Mr. Pike) that he wants to leave it up to chief constables to decide what they do with the money that they are given, but does he not realise that in real terms, Staffordshire and other police forces get less money than they received in 1997? Is that not, like the Budget, another example of taking one step forward but three steps backwards?
§ Mr. ClarkeI have discussed precisely those issues with a delegation of Staffordshire Members of Parliament, including the hon. Gentleman, and directly with the chief constable of Staffordshire. I am well aware of the issues, and the fact is that we are increasing the money. I am glad that the hon. Gentleman referred to the Budget, because one of its effects will be to ensure that what was a three-year programme to recruit the extra officers to whom he refers will now be completed in two years, and that at least twice as many officers will be recruited in the first year as had been planned. We are moving the programme forward, and a little grace on the hon. Gentleman's part would be in order.