§ It being Ten o'clock, the debate stood adjourned.
§
Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 15 (Exempted business),
That at this day's sitting, the Freedom of Information Bill may be proceeded with, though opposed, until any hour.—[Mr. Mike Hall.]
§ Question agreed to.
§ As amended in the Standing Committee, again considered.
§ Question again proposed, That the amendment be made.
§ Mr. LockHon. Members might be interested to know that when the code was introduced there was no such ban against retrospective action. The Conservatives are asking for a measure that they did not consider sufficiently important to include in the code that they introduced.
The amendments pull in opposite directions. Some of them would reduce the scope of the exemption to increase the rights of consumers at the expense of the rights of business. Those amendments would deter firms from sharing commercial information voluntarily with public authorities. The other amendments place prime importance on the rights of business at the expense of the citizen's right to know, which would disadvantage the general public.
That shows how difficult it is to balance the right to know with legitimate rights to privacy and confidentiality. The Government are taking a mediating role between those two opposing sides and ensuring that the public interest is properly taken into account through the operation of clause 13. As a result, particularly after the amendments to the provisions governing disclosure in the public interest, the Government have ensured that freedom of information will make a difference to consumers while ensuring that it will not unduly damage the commercial position of private companies or individuals.
The Bill will for the first time give consumers a right of access to a wide range of information. It will ensure that information is released when that is in the public interest. Freedom of information will lead to better informed and more involved citizens, while giving the commercial sector certainty in conducting its business, confident that the Government will not attempt to know its innermost workings.
I was going to deal with the matters raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, Central but he is not in his seat, so I shall pass on. Amendments Nos. 31 and 32 would introduce the word "substantial" to the exemption. It is difficult to place a specific meaning on the term "substantial" or to quantify the amendments' practical effects, but as I said earlier, that is not what the CBI wanted. If the word means a lot or a great deal, information that was damaging to a lesser extent would have to be disclosed with no need to show that the public interest required such damage to be caused. That is unacceptable. It would clearly be irresponsible and would not provide a proper balance between the public interest in disclosure and the maintenance of the exemption. The qualification of the term is unnecessary. The Government have consistently said that "prejudice" means prejudice that is actual, real and of substance. It is an ordinary word 911 used without qualification in many Acts. The word is also familiar to the courts and those involved in the day-to-day interpreting of legislation.
We must not forget that the judgment of whether the disclosure of commercial information would be prejudicial to a given interest will not rest with the authorities. The commissioner and the tribunal will be required to consider individual cases to determine whether there is prejudice. If the commission reaches the view that there is no prejudice, the public interest test does not apply and the information must be disclosed.
Under amendments Nos. 102, 103 and 104, companies would have to be given information in advance if their rights were to be affected. Public authorities will consult third parties, where such rights exist, to protect themselves from the threat of legal action. At present such rights must be enforced by the third party at its own risk. The Government do not consider that it would be right or necessary to create a new route for the enforcement of private legal rights, the costs of which would fall on the public purse. Where there are no legal rights at present, the Bill does not create new ones. It would be good practice for public authorities to consult third parties if they might be affected by a disclosure, but a statutory duty to do so would be cumbersome and onerous.
For those reasons, we cannot accept the amendments and I hope that they will not be pressed.
§ Mr. HawkinsI shall be extremely brief—unlike the Minister, who solemnly read out his advisers' note.
The Minister said that the Government have listened to the CBI. We say that they have clearly not listened hard enough, as they are rejecting proposals that are vital to the interests of business.
The Minister claimed that he was steering a middle course between the amendments tabled by the cross-party group and those tabled by the official Opposition. However, that is disingenuous, as the Bill came before any amendments were tabled by anyone. To paraphrase Tennyson's "The Charge of the Light Brigade", there are cannon to right of the Minister, and cannon to left of him, but he charges on—on to perdition and destruction.
The Minister said that the code instituted by the previous Conservative Government did not deal with retrospection, and claimed that as some sort of justification for what he is doing. However, does he not understand that the Bill amounts to retrospective legislation? There is all the difference in the world between dealing with retrospection by means of a code, and dealing, by means of an Act of Parliament, with retrospective effect.
§ Mr. LockDoes the hon. Gentleman accept that the code is fundamentally weak and that it has no effect? Is he worried about this matter because the legal rights contained in the Bill have legal value, while the code does not?
§ Mr. HawkinsNo, of course that is not what 1 am worried about. I am saying that business is right to be worried when any Government—and this Government in particular—introduce legislation with retrospective effect. The Minister knows the arguments put forward by the Opposition, the CBI and other business organisations.
912 The Government are plainly wrong. They are flying in the face of all the views expressed by business and the Opposition. I invite Conservative Members, and members of the cross-party group as well, to support the amendments, which we intend to press to a vote.
§ Question put, That the amendment be made:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 165, Noes 347.
915| Division No. 143] | [10.7 pm |
| AYES | |
| Allan, Richard | Gummer, Rt Hon John |
| Amess, David | Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archie |
| Ancram, Rt Hon Michael | Hammond, Philip |
| Arbuthnot, Rt Hon James | Harvey, Nick |
| Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy | Hawkins, Nick |
| Baldry, Tony | Heald, Oliver |
| Ballard, Jackie | Heath, David (Somerton & Frome) |
| Beggs, Roy | Heathcoat-Amory, Rt Hon David |
| Beith, Rt Hon A J | Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas |
| Bell, Martin (Tatton) | Horam, John |
| Bercow, John | Howard, Rt Hon Michael |
| Beresford, Sir Paul | Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot) |
| Blunt, Crispin | Hughes, Simon (Southwark N) |
| Body, Sir Richard | Jenkin, Bernard |
| Boswell, Tim | Keetch, Paul |
| Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W) | Kennedy, Rt Hon Charles (Ross Skye & Inverness W) |
| Bottomley, Rt Hon Mrs Virginia | |
| Brady, Graham | Key, Robert |
| Brake, Tom | Kirkbride, Miss Julie |
| Brand, Dr Peter | Kirkwood, Archy |
| Brazier, Julian | Laing, Mrs Eleanor |
| Breed, Colin | Lait, Mrs Jacqui |
| Brooke, Rt Hon Peter | Leigh, Edward |
| Browning, Mrs Angela | Letwin, Oliver |
| Bruce, Ian (S Dorset) | Lewis, Dr Julian (New Forest E) |
| Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon) | Lidington, David |
| Burnett, John | Lilley, Rt Hon Peter |
| Burstow, Paul | Livsey, Richard |
| Butterfill, John | Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham) |
| Campbell, Rt Hon Menzies (NE Fife) | Llwyd, Elfyn |
| Loughton, Tim | |
| Chope, Christopher | Luff, Peter |
| Clappison, James | Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas |
| Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Rushcliffe) | McIntosh, Miss Anne |
| MacKay, Rt Hon Andrew | |
| Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey | Maclean, Rt Hon David |
| Collins, Tim | Maclennan, Rt Hon Robert |
| Cotter, Brian | McLoughlin, Patrick |
| Cran, James | Madel, Sir David |
| Davey, Edward (Kingston) | Malins, Humfrey |
| Davies, Quentin (Grantham) | Maples, John |
| Dorrell, Rt Hon Stephen | Mates, Michael |
| Duncan, Alan | Maude, Rt Hon Francis |
| Duncan Smith, Iain | May, Mrs Theresa |
| Evans, Nigel | Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll & Bute) |
| Faber, David | Moore, Michael |
| Fabricant, Michael | Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway) |
| Fallon, Michael | Moss, Malcolm |
| Fearn, Ronnie | Nicholls, Patrick |
| Flight, Howard | Norman, Archie |
| Forth, Rt Hon Eric | Oaten, Mark |
| Foster, Don (Bath) | O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury) |
| Fox, Dr Liam | Öpik, Lembit |
| Fraser, Christopher | Ottaway, Richard |
| Gale, Roger | Page, Richard |
| Garnier, Edward | Paice, James |
| George, Andrew (St Ives) | Pickles, Eric |
| Gibb, Nick | Portillo, Rt Hon Michael |
| Gillan, Mrs Cheryl | Prior, David |
| Gorman, Mrs Teresa | Randall, John |
| Gray, James | Redwood, Rt Hon John |
| Green, Damian | Rendel, David |
| Grieve, Dominic | Robertson, Laurence |
| Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne) | Taylor, Matthew (Truro) |
| Ruffley, David | Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion) |
| Russell, Bob (Colchester) | Tonge, Dr Jenny |
| St Aubyn, Nick | Tredinnick, David |
| Sanders, Adrian | Trend, Michael |
| Sayeed, Jonathan | Tyler, Paul |
| Shephard, Rt Hon Mrs Gillian | Tyrie, Andrew |
| Simpson, Keith (Mid-Norfolk) | Viggers, Peter |
| Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns) | Wardle, Charles |
| Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S) | Waterson, Nigel |
| Soames, Nicholas | Webb, Steve |
| Spelman, Mrs Caroline | Wells, Bowen |
| Spicer, Sir Michael | Whitney, Sir Raymond |
| Spring, Richard | Whittingdale, John |
| Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John | Willetts, David |
| Steen, Anthony | Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton) |
| Streeter, Gary | Winterton, Nicholas (Macclesfield) |
| Stunell, Andrew | Yeo, Tim |
| Swayne, Desmond | Young, Rt Hon Sir George |
| Syms, Robert | |
| Tapsell, Sir Peter | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Taylor, Ian (Esher & Walton) | Mr. Stephen Day and |
| Taylor, John M (Solihull) | Mr. Peter Atkinson. |
| NOES | |
| Abbott, Ms Diane | Chapman, Ben (Wirral S) |
| Adams, Mrs Irene (Paisley N) | Chaytor, David |
| Ainger, Nick | Church, Ms Judith |
| Alexander, Douglas | Clapham, Michael |
| Allen, Graham | Clark, Rt Hon Dr David (S Shields) |
| Anderson, Donald (Swansea E) | /Clark, Dr Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands) |
| Anderson, Janet (Rossendale) | |
| Armstrong, Rt Hon Ms Hilary | Clark, Paul (Gillingham) |
| Ashton, Joe | Clarke, Charles (Norwich S) |
| Atherton, Ms Candy | Clarke, Eric (Midlothian) |
| Austin, John | Clarke, Tony (Northampton S) |
| Banks, Tony | Clelland, David |
| Barnes, Harry | Clwyd, Ann |
| Barron, Kevin | Coaker, Vernon |
| Bayley, Hugh | Coffey, Ms Ann |
| Beard, Nigel | Cohen, Harry |
| Beckett, Rt Hon Mrs Margaret | Coleman, Iain |
| Begg, Miss Anne | Colman, Tony |
| Bell, Stuart (Middlesbrough) | Connarty, Michael |
| Benn, Hilary (Leeds C) | Cook, Frank (Stockton N) |
| Benn, Rt Hon Tony (Chesterfield) | Cooper, Yvette |
| Bennett, Andrew F | Corbett, Robin |
| Benton, Joe | Corbyn, Jeremy |
| Bermingham, Gerald | Cousins, Jim |
| Berry, Roger | Cranston, Ross |
| Best, Harold | Crausby, David |
| Blackman, Liz | Cummings, John |
| Blears, Ms Hazel | Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr Jack (Copeland) |
| Blizzard, Bob | |
| Blunkett, Rt Hon David | Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try S) |
| Boateng, Rt Hon Paul | Dalyell, Tam |
| Bradley, Keith (Withington) | Darling, Rt Hon Alistair |
| Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin) | Darvill, Keith |
| Bradshaw, Ben | Davidson, Ian |
| Brinton, Mrs Helen | Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli) |
| Brown, Rt Hon Nick (Newcastle E) | Davies, Geraint (Croydon C) |
| Browne, Desmond | Dawson, Hilton |
| Buck, Ms Karen | Dean, Mrs Janet |
| Burden, Richard | Denham, John |
| Burgon, Colin | Dismore, Andrew |
| Butler, Mrs Christine | Dobbin, Jim |
| Byers, Rt Hon Stephen | Donohoe, Brian H |
| Caborn, Rt Hon Richard | Doran, Frank |
| Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth) | Dowd, Jim |
| Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge) | Eagle, Angela (Wallasey) |
| Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V) | Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston) |
| Campbell-Savours, Dale | Edwards, Huw |
| Caplin, Ivor | Efford, Clive |
| Casale, Roger | Ellman, Mrs Louise |
| Caton, Martin | Ennis, Jeff |
| Cawsey, Ian | Field, Rt Hon Frank |
| Fisher, Mark | Kilfoyle, Peter |
| Fitzpatrick, Jim | King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth) |
| Fitzsimons, Lorna | King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green) |
| Flint, Caroline | Ladyman, Dr Stephen |
| Follett, Barbara | Laxton, Bob |
| Foster, Rt Hon Derek | Lepper, David |
| Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings) | Leslie, Christopher |
| Foster, Michael J (Worcester) | Levitt, Tom |
| Foulkes, George | Lewis, Terry (Worsley) |
| Galbraith, Sam | Liddell, Rt Hon Mrs Helen |
| Galloway, George | Linton, Martin |
| Gardiner, Barry | Lock, David |
| Gerrard, Neil | Love, Andrew |
| Gilroy, Mrs Linda | McAvoy, Thomas |
| Godman, Dr Norman A | McCabe, Steve |
| Godsiff, Roger | McCartney, Rt Hon Ian (Makerfield) |
| Goggins, Paul | |
| Golding, Mrs Llin | McDonagh, Siobhain |
| Gordon, Mrs Eileen | Macdonald, Calum |
| Grant, Bernie | McDonnell, John |
| Griffiths, Jane (Reading E) | McFall, John |
| Griffiths, Win (Bridgend) | McGuire, Mrs Anne |
| Grocott, Bruce | McIsaac, Shona |
| Grogan, John | McKenna, Mrs Rosemary |
| Gunnell, John | Mackinlay, Andrew |
| Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale) | McLeish, Henry |
| Hall, Patrick (Bedford) | McNulty, Tony |
| Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE) | MacShane, Denis |
| Hanson, David | Mactaggart, Fiona |
| Harman, Rt Hon Ms Harriet | McWalter, Tony |
| Heal, Mrs Sylvia | McWilliam, John |
| Healey, John | Mahon, Mrs Alice |
| Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N) | Mallaber, Judy |
| Henderson, Ivan (Harwich) | Marek, Dr John |
| Heppell, John | Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S) |
| Hesford, Stephen | Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury) |
| Hill, Keith | Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) |
| Hinchliffe, David | Marshall-Andrews, Robert |
| Hodge, Ms Margaret | Martlew, Eric |
| Hoey, Kate | Maxton, John |
| Home Robertson, John | Meacher, Rt Hon Michael |
| Hoon, Rt Hon Geoffrey | Merron, Gillian |
| Hope, Phil | Michael, Rt Hon Alun |
| Hopkins, Kelvin | Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley) |
| Howarth, Alan (Newport E) | Milburn, Rt Hon Alan |
| Howarth, George (Knowsley N) | Miller, Andrew |
| Howells, Dr Kim | Moffatt, Laura |
| Hoyle, Lindsay | Moonie, Dr Lewis |
| Hughes, Ms Beverley (Stretford) | Moran, Ms Margaret |
| Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N) | Morgan, Ms Julie (Cardiff N) |
| Humble, Mrs Joan | Morley, Elliot |
| Hurst, Alan | Morris, Rt Hon Ms Estelle (B'ham Yardley) |
| Hutton, John | |
| Iddon, Dr Brian | Mountford, Kali |
| Illsley, Eric | Mowlam, Rt Hon Marjorie |
| Ingram, Rt Hon Adam | Mudie, George |
| Jackson, Ms Glenda (Hampstead) | Mullin, Chris |
| Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough) | Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck) |
| Jamieson, David | Murphy, Jim (Eastwood) |
| Jenkins, Brian | Murphy, Rt Hon Paul (Torfaen) |
| Johnson, Alan (Hull W & Hessle) | Naysmith, Dr Doug |
| Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield) | Norris, Dan |
| O'Brien, Bill (Normanton) | |
| Jones, Rt Hon Barry (Alyn) | O'Brien, Mike (N Warks) |
| Jones, Helen (Warrington N) | Olner, Bill |
| Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C) | O'Neill, Martin |
| Jones, Dr Lynne (Selly Oak) | Organ, Mrs Diana |
| Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S) | Osborne, Ms Sandra |
| Jowell, Rt Hon Ms Tessa | Palmer, Dr Nick |
| Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald | Pearson, Ian |
| Keeble, Ms Sally | Perham, Ms Linda |
| Keen, Alan (Feltham & Heston) | Pickthall, Colin |
| Kemp, Fraser | Pike, Peter L |
| Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree) | Plaskitt, James |
| Khabra, Piara S | Pollard, Kerry |
| Kidney, David | Pond, Chris |
| Pope, Greg | Stewart, Ian (Eccles) |
| Pound, Stephen | Stinchcombe, Paul |
| Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E) | Stoate, Dr Howard |
| Prentice, Gordon (Pendle) | Strang, Rt Hon Dr Gavin |
| Primarolo, Dawn | Straw, Rt Hon Jack |
| Prosser, Gwyn | Stringer, Graham |
| Purchase, Ken | Stuart, Ms Gisela |
| Quin, Rt Hon Ms Joyce | Sutcliffe, Gerry |
| Quinn, Lawrie | Taylor, Rt Hon Mrs Ann (Dewsbury) |
| Radice, Rt Hon Giles | |
| Rammell, Bill | Taylor, Ms Dari (Stockton S) |
| Raynsford, Nick | Taylor, David (NW Leics) |
| Reid, Rt Hon Dr John (Hamilton N) | Temple-Morris, Peter |
| Robinson, Geoffrey (Cov'try NW) | Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W) |
| Roche, Mrs Barbara | Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W) |
| Rogers, Allan | Timms, Stephen |
| Rooker, Rt Hon Jeff | Tipping, Paddy |
| Rooney, Terry | Todd, Mark |
| Ross, Ernie (Dundee W) | Touhig, Don |
| Rowlands, Ted | Trickett, Jon |
| Roy, Frank | Truswell, Paul |
| Ruane, Chris | Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE) |
| Ruddock, Joan | Turner, Dr George (NW Norfolk) |
| Turner, Neil (Wigan) | |
| Russell, Ms Christine (Chester) | Twigg Derek (Halton) |
| Ryan, Ms Joan | Twigg, Stephen (Enfield) |
| Salter, Martin | Vaz, Keith |
| Savidge, Malcolm | Walley, Ms Joan |
| Sawford, Phil | Ward, Ms Claire |
| Sedgemore, Brian | Wareing, Robert N |
| Shaw, Jonathan | Watts, David |
| Shipley, Ms Debra | White, Brian |
| Short, Rt Hon Clare | Whitehead, Dr Alan |
| Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S) | Wicks, Malcolm |
| Singh, Marsha | Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W) |
| Skinner, Dennis | |
| Smith, Rt Hon Andrew (Oxford E) | Williams, Alan W (E Carmarthen) |
| Smith, Angela (Basildon) | Williams, Mrs Betty (Conwy) |
| Smith, Rt Hon Chris (Islington S) | Wills, Michael |
| Smith, Miss Geraldine (Morecambe & Lunesdale) | Wilson, Brian |
| Winnick, David | |
| Smith, Jacqui (Redditch) | Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C) |
| Smith, John (Glamorgan) | Wood, Mike |
| Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent) | Woodward, Shaun |
| Snape, Peter | Woolas, Phil |
| Soley, Clive | Worthington, Tony |
| Southworth, Ms Helen | Wright, Anthony D (Gt Yarmouth) |
| Spellar, John | Wright, Dr Tony (Cannock) |
| Squire, Ms Rachel | Wyatt, Derek |
| Starkey, Dr Phyllis | |
| Steinberg, Gerry | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Stevenson, George | Mr. Robert Ainsworth and |
| Stewart, David (Inverness E) | Mr. Clive Betts. |
§ Question accordingly negatived.
§
Amendment made: No. 45, in page 5, line 34, after "day", insert—
', not later than the sixtieth working day following the date of receipt,'.—[Mr. Mike Hall.]
- Clause 13
- DISCRETIONARY DISCLOSURES 10,466 words
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