- '.—(1) The Secretary of State shall review the operation of this section when—
- (i) a report on the armed forces pension scheme has been laid before Parliament by the Secretary of State for Defence; and
- (ii) the results of any public consultation upon a report as cited in subsection (i) above have been published;
- (2) Subject to subsection (3), a widow in receipt of a widow's pension under any of the enactments mentioned in subsection (4) ("the DSS pension") and in receipt of a pension paid under the Armed Forces Pension Scheme shall on remarriage or when living together as husband and wife with a member of the opposite sex only retain the Forces Family Pension (attributable).
- (3) Subsection (2) does not apply to a widow in receipt of a basic pension under section 44 of the Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992; and a widow in receipt of such a pension who has remarried or is living together as husband and wife with a member of the opposite sex may not retain the Forces Family Pension (attributable).
- (4) The enactments referred to in subsection (2) are—
- (a) the Naval, Military and Air Forces etc. (Disablement and Death) Service Pensions Order 1983, and any order re-enacting the provisions of that order,
- (b) the Personal Injuries (Civilians) Scheme 1983, and any subsequent scheme made under the Personal Injuries (Emergency Provisions) Act 1939,
- (c) any scheme made under the Pensions (Navy, Army, Air Force and Mercantile Marine) Act 1939, or the Polish Resettlement Act 1947 applying the provisions of any such order as is referred to in paragraph (a),
- (d) the order made under section 1(5) of the Ulster Defence Regiment Act 1969 concerning pensions and other grants in respect of disablement or death due to service in the Ulster Defence Regiment.'.—[Mr. Willetts.]
772
§ Brought up, and read the First time.
§ Mr. WillettsI beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
War widows have a long-standing grievance. When they remarry, they lose their armed forces family pension. We propose, as we have before, that approximately 2,500 post-1973 widows of men killed in the line of duty should retain their right to that pension even if they remarry.
This cause was particularly close to the heart of Michael Colvin, the late hon. Member for Romsey. He contributed an enormous amount to this subject, drawing on his own expertise in the armed forces. It has also been pursued vigorously by Baroness Strange in the other place. Indeed, the Minister of State has previously made encouraging sounds about it, and has made it clear that his heart was with us on this reform. In Standing Committee, he may been over-excited when he said:
I may be putting myself in the hot seat by saying this, but if I were a Back Bencher, I would go for it. As a Minister, I shall, of course, explain why we should not proceed down that road.—[Official Report, Standing Committee F, Tuesday 7 March 2000; c. 751.1As there are many Back Benchers in the Chamber, on both sides, I hope that the Minister will encourage them to vote for the new clause, which would rectify an injustice at modest cost. We understand concerns about the need to ring-fence the provision; we accept that, but the provision should be made to protect a narrow group of war widows. In the light of the review currently being undertaken, I hope that the Minister will feel able to accept our proposal.
§ Mr. David HeathThis is the third time that we have debated an amendment of this sort during the past six months. As the hon. Member for Havant (Mr. Willetts) said, there are clear reasons for doing something about the group of war widows involved. It would provide justice for them and their families, enabling them to rebuild their lives and get on with normal life without losing out. The cost to the Exchequer is minimal. Indeed, given the limited number of people involved, the change might even be beneficial because of the effect that it would have on morale in the services. We all know of the current recruitment and retention problems. The attitudes displayed by the current arrangements are frankly out of date in treating widows as chattels of their late husbands. We should not tolerate that any longer.
12.30 am
As the hon. Member for Havant said, in earlier discussions the Minister of State virtually told us that we were right but that he was not allowed to say so. I hope that he will reiterate that intimation this evening. I hope that we shall not hear figures bandied about from the brief as we have on previous occasions. At one point, we were told that this rather modest measure would cost £3 billion. I do not believe that to be the case, or that anyone believes that to be the case. It may have been an inappropriate suggestion.
773 I am very glad that the Secretary of State for Defence is in the Chamber. I know that he will be listening carefully to what is said and will wish the new clause to be pressed to a Division to assist his deliberations in the review.
We have been entirely consistent on this matter. If I have one small criticism of Conservative Front-Bench Members, it is the fact that I do not recall two consecutive debates in this and another place in which they have taken a consistent position. [Interruption.] Sadly, that is the case. Before 3 November, the Conservative Front-Bench team in another place voted against; when the measure came to this place, the Front-Bench team voted for; when it went back to the Lords, the Front-Bench team abstained; when it came back to this place, the Front-Bench team voted for again.
I hope that the hon. Member for Havant will communicate to his colleagues in another place the importance of the amendment; that the House will support it tonight; and that, even if it is not passed tonight, it will return to us from the House of Lords and we shall be able to put it into law.
§ Mr. Quentin DaviesI think that it will be in accordance with the mood of the House if I am extremely brief. This, as my hon. Friend the Member for Havant (Mr. Willetts) said, is a cause that has been with us for some time, and which the late Mr. Michael Colvin made his own. He did a magnificent job.
I want to speak to this issue both from the point of view of justice and from the point of view of practicality. From the point of view of justice, there is no doubt that the present situation is illogical, anomalous and, frankly, hypocritical. It has never been suggested that widows should wear their widows' weeds permanently. A widow who formed, for example, a permanent lesbian relationship or a widow who had a kaleidoscopic series of heterosexual relationships would be allowed to retain her pension, but a widow who forms a permanent relationship or gets remarried loses the totality of her pension. As a constituent who is a war widow put it to me, "We really have a choice between celibacy, dishonesty"—that is to say, concealment of the actual position—"and promiscuity." That is an absurd situation in which to place war widows. From the point of view of justice, there is absolutely nothing to be said for the present situation, and it is shameful that it has not already been righted.
From the point of view of practicality, the issue of cost always arises—quite rightly—but in recent wars such as the Falklands war, Operation Desert Storm and so on, the number of our casualties has been very limited, so, fortunately, the group of war widows with which we have to deal post-second world war is relatively small and, we trust, will remain that way. It therefore seems to me that the cost of justice is not very great; and when the cost of justice is not overwhelming, there is absolutely no excuse for the House not to choose the road of justice.
§ Mr. RookerAbout eight hours ago, when I was discussing national insurance contributions, I alluded to the fact that at that time I was speaking on behalf of my right hon. Friends in the Treasury, and that later in the day, I would be doing the same for another Department. I have been asked to be really brief. This is the time when, 774 on behalf of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence, I have to tell the House that this matter is under consideration and that the situation has not changed since we last spoke. I am not going to bandy about figures. The cost of the new clause is £3 million for the 2,500 war widows.
My right hon. Friend will report to the House. I have raised the matter personally with him, as I said I would in November 1999, when I drew the short straw during consideration of Lords amendments to the Bill that became the Welfare Reform and Pensions Act 1999. Defence Ministers take the issue extremely seriously. The review will come to the House this summer. There will be adequate consultation on it, and I hope that we can reach a satisfactory conclusion on behalf of this very important group of people. I do not want to enter into the debate about how we feel about them, but there is a serious issue to be dealt with, and I hope that it can be dealt with as soon as possible.
§ Mr. WillettsWe appreciate that the Minister believes that there is an injustice that needs to be corrected. To help him on his way and in his negotiations with the Ministry of Defence, we propose to press the issue to a vote to show how strongly we feel that war widows are entitled to a better deal.
§ Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:—
§ The House divided:Ayes 141, Noes 265.
777| Division No. 140] | [12.35 am |
| AYES | |
| Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey) | Fabricant, Michael |
| Amess, David | Fallon, Michael |
| Arbuthnot, Rt Hon James | Fearn, Ronnie |
| Atkinson, Peter (Hexham) | Flight, Howard |
| Beith, Rt Hon A J | Forth, Rt Hon Eric |
| Bercow, John | Foster, Don (Bath) |
| Beresford, Sir Paul | Fox, Dr Liam |
| Body, Sir Richard | Fraser, Christopher |
| Boswell, Tim | Gale, Roger |
| Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W) | Garnier, Edward |
| Bottomley, Rt Hon Mrs Virginia | George, Andrew (St Ives) |
| Brady, Graham | Gibb, Nick |
| Brake, Tom | Gillan, Mrs Cheryl |
| Brand, Dr Peter | Gray, James |
| Brazier, Julian | Green, Damian |
| Breed, Colin | Greenway, John |
| Brooke, Rt Hon Peter | Grieve, Dominic |
| Browning, Mrs Angela | Gummer, Rt Hon John |
| Bruce, Ian (S Dorset) | Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archie |
| Burnett, John | Harris, Dr Evan |
| Burstow, Paul | Harvey, Nick |
| Butterfill, John | Hayes, John |
| Campbell, Rt Hon Menzies (NE Fife) | Heald, Oliver |
| Heath, David (Somerton & Frome) | |
| Chope, Christopher | Heathcoat-Amory, Rt Hon David |
| Clappison, James | Hughes, Simon (Southwark N) |
| Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey | Hunter, Andrew |
| Collins, Tim | Jenkin, Bernard |
| Cotter, Brian | Kennedy, Rt Hon Charles (Ross Skye & Inverness W) |
| Cran, James | |
| Davey, Edward (Kingston) | Key, Robert |
| Davies, Quentin (Grantham) | King, Rt Hon Tom (Bridgwater) |
| Davis, Rt Hon David (Haltemprice) | Kirkwood, Archy |
| Day, Stephen | Laing, Mrs Eleanor |
| Dorrell, Rt Hon Stephen | Lait, Mrs Jacqui |
| Duncan, Alan | Lansley, Andrew |
| Duncan Smith, Iain | Leigh, Edward |
| Evans, Nigel | Letwin, Oliver |
| Faber, David | Lewis, Dr Julian (New Forest E) |
| Lidington, David | Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns) |
| Lilley, Rt Hon Peter | Soames, Nicholas |
| Livsey, Richard | Spelman, Mrs Caroline |
| Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham) | Spicer, Sir Michael |
| Llwyd, Elfyn | Spring, Richard |
| Loughton, Tim | Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John |
| Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas | Steen, Anthony |
| Maclean, Rt Hon David | Streeter, Gary |
| McLoughlin, Patrick | Stunell, Andrew |
| Malins, Humfrey | Swayne, Desmond |
| Mates, Michael | Syms, Robert |
| May, Mrs Theresa | Tapsell, Sir Peter |
| Moss, Malcolm | Taylor, Ian (Esher & Walton) |
| Nicholls, Patrick | Taylor, John M (Solihull) |
| Norman, Archie | Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion) |
| Tonge, Dr Jenny | |
| Oaten, Mark | Tredinnick, David |
| O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury) | Trend, Michael |
| Page, Richard | Tyler, Paul |
| Paice, James | Tyrie, Andrew |
| Pickles, Eric | Viggers, Peter |
| Portillo, Rt Hon Michael | Wardle, Charles |
| Prior, David | Waterson, Nigel |
| Redwood, Rt Hon John | Webb, Steve |
| Rendel, David | Whitney, Sir Raymond |
| Robathan, Andrew | Whittingdale, John |
| Robertson, Laurence | Willetts, David |
| Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne) | Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton) |
| Ruffley, David | Yeo, Tim |
| Russell, Bob (Colchester) | Young, Rt Hon Sir George |
| St Aubyn, Nick | |
| Sanders, Adrian | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Shephard, Rt Hon Mrs Gillian | Mr. Peter Luff and |
| Simpson, Keith (Mid-Norfolk) | Mr. John Randall. |
| NOES | |
| Ainger, Nick | Clark, Paul (Gillingham) |
| Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE) | Clarke, Charles (Norwich S) |
| Anderson, Donald (Swansea E) | Clarke, Tony (Northampton S) |
| Anderson, Janet (Rossendale) | Clelland, David |
| Armstrong, Rt Hon Ms Hilary | Clwyd, Ann |
| Atherton, Ms Candy | Coaker, Vernon |
| Atkins, Charlotte | Coffey, Ms Ann |
| Austin, John | Cohen, Harry |
| Banks, Tony | Coleman, Iain |
| Barnes, Harry | Colman, Tony |
| Barron, Kevin | Connarty, Michael |
| Bayley, Hugh | Cook, Frank (Stockton N) |
| Beard, Nigel | Corbett, Robin |
| Beckett, Rt Hon Mrs Margaret | Corbyn, Jeremy |
| Benton, Joe | Cousins, Jim |
| Bermingham, Gerald | Crausby, David |
| Berry, Roger | Cryer, John (Hornchurch) |
| Blears, Ms Hazel | Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr Jack (Copeland) |
| Blizzard, Bob | |
| Boateng, Rt Hon Paul | Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try S) |
| Bradley, Keith (Withington) | Dalyell, Tam |
| Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin) | Darling, Rt Hon Alistair |
| Bradshaw, Ben | Darvill, Keith |
| Brown, Rt Hon Nick (Newcastle E) | Davey, Valerie (Bristol W) |
| Browne, Desmond | Davidson, Ian |
| Buck, Ms Karen | Davies, Geraint (Croydon C) |
| Burden, Richard | Dean, Mrs Janet |
| Caborn, Rt Hon Richard | Dismore, Andrew |
| Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth) | Dobbin, Jim |
| Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V) | Donohoe, Brian H |
| Campbell-Savours, Dale | Doran, Frank |
| Caplin, Ivor | Dowd, Jim |
| Casale, Roger | Eagle, Angela (Wallasey) |
| Caton, Martin | Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston) |
| Cawsey, Ian | Edwards, Huw |
| Chapman, Ben (Wirral S) | Ennis, Jeff |
| Clapham, Michael | Field, Rt Hon Frank |
| Clark, Rt Hon Dr David (S Shields) | Fisher, Mark |
| Clark, Dr Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands) | Fitzsimons, Lorna |
| Flint, Caroline |
| Follett, Barbara | Mackinlay, Andrew |
| Foster, Rt Hon Derek | McNulty, Tony |
| Foster, Michael J (Worcester) | MacShane, Denis |
| Foulkes, George | Mactaggart, Fiona |
| Gardiner, Barry | McWalter, Tony |
| Gerrard, Neil | McWilliam, John |
| Gilroy, Mrs Linda | Mahon, Mrs Alice |
| Godman, Dr Norman A | Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury) |
| Godsiff, Roger | Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) |
| Goggins, Paul | Marshall-Andrews, Robert |
| Golding, Mrs Llin | Maxton, John |
| Gordon, Mrs Eileen | Meacher, Rt Hon Michael |
| Griffiths, Jane (Reading E) | Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley) |
| Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S) | Miller, Andrew |
| Grocott, Bruce | Moffatt, Laura |
| Grogan, John | Moonie, Dr Lewis |
| Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale) | Morgan, Ms Julie (Cardiff N) |
| Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE) | Morley, Elliot |
| Harman, Rt Hon Ms Harriet | Morris, Rt Hon Ms Estelle (B'ham Yardley) |
| Heal, Mrs Sylvia | |
| Healey, John | Mountford, Kali |
| Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N) | Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck) |
| Henderson, Ivan (Harwich) | Murphy, Rt Hon Paul (Torfaen) |
| Heppell, John | Naysmith, Dr Doug |
| Hill, Keith | Norris, Dan |
| Hinchliffe, David | O'Brien, Mike (N Warks) |
| Hoon, Rt Hon Geoffrey | Olner, Bill |
| Hope, Phil | O'Neill, Martin |
| Hopkins, Kelvin | Osborne, Ms Sandra |
| Howarth, Alan (Newport E) | Palmer, Dr Nick |
| Howells, Dr Kim | Pearson, Ian |
| Hoyle, Lindsay | Pendry, Tom |
| Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N) | Perham, Ms Linda |
| Humble, Mrs Joan | Pickthall, Colin |
| Hurst, Alan | Pike, Peter L |
| Hutton, John | Plaskitt, James |
| Iddon, Dr Brian | Pollard, Kerry |
| Illsley, Eric | Pond, Chris |
| Jackson, Ms Glenda (Hampstead) | Pope, Greg |
| Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough) | Pound, Stephen |
| Jamieson, David | Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E) |
| Jenkins, Brian | Prentice, Gordon (Pendle) |
| Johnson, Alan (Hull W & Hessle) | Prosser, Gwyn |
| Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield) | Purchase, Ken |
| Quin, Rt Hon Ms Joyce | |
| Jones, Rt Hon Barry (Alyn) | Quinn, Lawrie |
| Jones, Helen (Warrington N) | Radice, Rt Hon Giles |
| Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C) | Raynsford, Nick |
| Jones, Dr Lynne (Selly Oak) | Reed, Andrew (Loughborough) |
| Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S) | Reid, Rt Hon Dr John (Hamilton N) |
| Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald | Roche, Mrs Barbara |
| Keeble, Ms Sally | Rooker, Rt Hon Jeff |
| Keen, Alan (Feltham & Heston) | Rooney, Terry |
| Kemp, Fraser | Ross, Ernie (Dundee W) |
| Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree) | Rowlands, Ted |
| Khabra, Piara S | Roy, Frank |
| Kidney, David | Ruane, Chris |
| Kilfoyle, Peter | Ruddock, Joan |
| King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth) | Ryan, Ms Joan |
| King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green) | Savidge, Malcolm |
| Laxton, Bob | Sawford, Phil |
| Lepper, David | Sedgemore, Brian |
| Leslie, Christopher | Short, Rt Hon Clare |
| Levitt, Tom | Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S) |
| Lewis, Terry (Worsley) | Singh, Marsha |
| Liddell, Rt Hon Mrs Helen | Skinner, Dennis |
| Linton, Martin | Smith, Rt Hon Andrew (Oxford E) |
| Lock, David | Smith, Angela (Basildon) |
| Love, Andrew | Smith, Jacqui (Redditch) |
| McAvoy, Thomas | Smith, John (Glamorgan) |
| McCabe, Steve | Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent) |
| McDonagh, Siobhain | Soley, Clive |
| Macdonald, Calum | Southworth, Ms Helen |
| McDonnell, John | Spellar, John |
| McFall, John | Squire, Ms Rachel |
| McGuire, Mrs Anne | Steinberg, Gerry |
| Stevenson, George | Twigg, Stephen (Enfield) |
| Stewart, David (Inverness E) | Walley, Ms Joan |
| Stewart, Ian (Eccles) | Ward, Ms Claire |
| Stoate, Dr Howard | Watts, David |
| Stringer, Graham | White, Brian |
| Stuart, Ms Gisela | Whitehead, Dr Alan |
| Sutcliffe, Gerry | Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W) |
| Taylor, Rt Hon Mrs Ann (Dewsbury) | |
| Williams, Alan W (E Carmarthen) | |
| Taylor, Ms Dari (Stockton S) | Williams, Mrs Betty (Conwy) |
| Taylor, David (NW Leics) | Winnick, David |
| Wood, Mike | |
| Temple-Morris, Peter | Woodward, Shaun |
| Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W) | Woolas, Phil |
| Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W) | Worthington, Tony |
| Touhig, Don | Wright, Anthony D (Gt Yarmouth) |
| Trickett, Jon | Wright Dr Tony (Cannock) |
| Truswell, Paul | Wyatt, Derek |
| Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE) | |
| Turner, Dr George (NW Norfolk) | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Turner, Neil (Wigan) | Mr. Clive Betts and |
| Twigg, Derek (Halton) | Mr. Graham Allen. |
§ Question accordingly negatived.