BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

HC Deb 10 November 1999 vol 337 cc1233-41

Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 15 (Exempted business), That, at this day's sitting, consideration of Lords Amendments to the House of Lords Bill, the Motion in the name of Margaret Beckett relating to Business of the House, and consideration of any Messages from the Lords relating to the House of Lords Bill may be proceeded with, though opposed, until any hour.—[Mr. Jamieson.]

Question agreed to.

Lords amendments again considered.

Question again proposed, That this House disagrees with the Lords in the said amendment.

10 pm

Mr. Leigh

At least the amendment would have been something. At least the Prime Minister, or the political party leaders could not have got their sticky fingers on one part of our Parliament—just one small part. We asked for one small thing and even that has been rejected.

What arguments have been advanced today? It has been argued that the amendment may be technically flawed, or that it is not appropriate to put Privy Councillors in an amendment. That is nonsense. The Government should be ashamed of themselves. I hope that at least some Labour Members will have the decency to vote for what is a small amendment.

Mr. Tyrie

In contrast to the previous debate, Conservative Members all agree that we want to keep the Lords amendment. That is also my view, but not because I think that an appointments commission is a tremendously good idea. I would prefer legislators to be chosen by election. It is extraordinary that, in this day and age, as we approach the 21st century, they should be chosen in any other way. Therefore, the commission is not so much second best; it is third best.

The commission is, I suppose, a constraint of sorts on prime ministerial patronage and we do need some constraints on such patronage. The Prime Minister has appointed more life peers per annum than any other since life peers were introduced.

The Minister said earlier that I had got my facts wrong, but I have gone to the Library to check them. They are right. It is also true that the Labour Government have appointed more Labour peers as a proportion of the total number than any Government have ever appointed from their own side. Packing is taking place on a huge scale, so we need something to restrain it.

What is more, patronage will be much more important in the interim House than it is now because there will be far more life peers as a proportion of the total and also means that the House will be smaller. Therefore, any addition to the House is disproportionately more important.

The proposals were set out not just in the Government's own White Paper, but in detail by Baroness Jay in Committee. The drafters of the amendment have clearly gone into that detail. They have looked at what she said and ensured that, as far as possible, the amendment conformed to what the Government want. The Government will vote down their own amendment tonight. It is extraordinary.

Why have the Government decided to turn the amendment down tonight? I cannot think, but we have been given a few reasons. I shall go through a few of them. First, the Minister said—he can correct me if I am wrong—that there is no need for an appointments commission because it is only an interim House; it will be gone in a few minutes, so we do not have to worry about it much. That seems to contradict all the other arguments about the Weatherill amendment, which could last for some considerable time, as several hon. Members have acknowledged. I fear that it may last for a very long time indeed, as the last interim House did: it was introduced in 1911 and we have only just started to reform it.

That may have been the Minister's argument—that the commission would deal only with a temporary House—but Baroness Jay gave exactly the opposite reason when she discussed the measure in the other place. She said that we must get it in quickly and promised that she would do so to deal with the new year's honours list; clearly, that will not now happen.

Baroness Jay made her promise in June and we have had no action since. The only action taken seems to have a been a memo to the Treasury saying, "We need a few bob to start work on the commission, so if we want to spend any money please could we have some?" That would take only 48 hours. I am sure that the Chancellor has ticked it off, so that is no reason for not agreeing to the amendment.

The Minister's second argument was that work on establishing the commission would be impeded simply because the other place has put a proposal on the commission into a Bill. As my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke) said, such an argument could only imply that the Government are planning to establish a different commission from the one proposed in their White Paper, and that Ministers are now halfway down the road and do not want to allow the provision into the Bill.

It is extraordinary to suggest that, every time an amendment on a key issue is tabled in the other place, Government planning should grind to a halt until that amendment has been dealt with. That is not an argument.

The Minister's third argument was that Privy Councillors are entirely unsuitable to serve on the commission. Such a proposition is barely worth debating. The Minister could alter the provision by tabling a small amendment to widen or narrow the list to include those whom hon. Members on both sides of the House think should serve.

Finally, the Minister argued that we could do without a statutory body. That argument gave away much of the truth. If the commission is not statutory, the Prime Minister will be able to change its terms and structure. Consequently, we should have no confidence that there will be an open and transparent system to appoint legislators.

The Minister gave those four reasons for not accepting the amendment, and they were barely worth even articulating. I hope that we shall not hear the arguments again, and that he has kept something up his sleeve to encourage us to think differently.

Mr. Bercow

Do not hold your breath.

Mr. Tyrie

I fear that we shall hear virtually no argument from the Minister, and I certainly shall not hold my breath.

I should be very interested to see whether the Minister has decided that he is prepared after all to concede the matter. If he is not, I should be grateful to hear some better reasons for not doing so other than those that he has given us so far.

Mr. Grieve

This has been a fascinating debate, and perhaps the most fascinating aspect of the lot is that, in presenting the Government's arguments, the Minister has been entirely unsupported by any intervention of substance by a Labour Member.

Mr. Bermingham

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Grieve

I shall in a moment.

It is impossible to escape the conclusion that the Government's intention today, once the Weatherill amendment had been debated, was that the appointments issue—which is critical to the future of the House of Lords, and to the future of freedom and democracy in the United Kingdom—should simply be wafted away with a wave of the hand.

I listened to the Minister's speech, and—it is customary to say this, and I join in saying it—I am completely satisfied about his own integrity and the assurances that he gave the House on the Government's good intentions. However, if the intervention of the hon. Member for North-West Norfolk (Dr. Turner) demonstrated the quality of the mainstream Labour party's input into the future of accountability and ending patronage, the House has something to fear from the Government.

In a series of interventions by Opposition Members—by my right hon. and learned Friends the Members for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke) and for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Mr. Hogg), my right hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mr. Brooke) and my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Leigh)—what has shone through is that, regardless of how we view the ideal solution for the House of Lords, we are all deeply anxious about the matter of patronage, and that the future House, whether elected or appointed, should be free of patronage.

Mr. Bermingham

It would have been so much more pleasant if the right hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Mr. Hogg) had given way earlier. My point is very simple: we are waiting for Wakeham. Once the Wakeham commission reports, we shall know where we are going. It is far too early for Lords amendment No. 2.

Mr. Grieve

With respect, that intervention worries me rather a lot too. One of the central problems in all this is that we were invited to go through a temporary stage and were offered some permanent stage at a later date. However, the temporary stage is so flawed by the absence of safeguards that should be present—in particular, the appointment of members to the upper House—that it gives us real cause for concern.

We can go on waiting for Wakeham for a long time. When it comes, the safeguards will not be in place, so if the Government decide never to implement a second stage, as many of us strongly fear, these safeguards will never come into operation, or if they do, because they will not be in a statutory form, the Government will have every opportunity if they so wish to remove them with impunity and without so much as a reference to the House.

I do not want to take up the time of the House by repeating arguments, but a couple of points merit going over. There were three powerful interventions from Labour Members who, as I understood it, shared the Opposition's disquiet in this matter—the hon. Member for Thurrock (Mr. Mackinlay) and the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Mr. Fisher) and, although he may correct me, I also detected a considerable amount of anxiety in the hon. Member for Greenock and lnverclyde (Dr. Godman).

This solution may be imperfect. The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central correctly identified all the other areas where it might be desirable for an appointments commission to rule, not merely on the appointment of Cross-Bench peers but of all future peers if it is to be an appointed Chamber, whether it be temporary or—as we all fear—permanent. Which is the better—that we should not signal tonight at least an appreciation of what members of the House of Lords have tried to do or that we should simply say that we will wait on assurances from the Government for some future date?

It is a little difficult to criticise members of the other place for what one might describe as the conservative approach that they adopted in tabling the amendment, when all that they sought to do was to mirror the assurances that the Government had given. Had they gone much further, they would have been open to all sorts of criticism. Therefore, they were greatly to be commended for the fact that they chose only to take a tentative step. However, if it is only a tentative step, it does not make it negligible. If we go ahead and put down a proper sign that that is the direction in which we ought to be going, it will be difficult subsequently for any Government to gainsay it. To await the assurances of the Minister in this matter appears a counterproductive step and one that risks the danger that the Government will say that it can all be dismissed because there was not real concern in the House about the matter.

I appeal to the Minister and his colleagues, who have given the matter a lot of careful thought and who joined a debate on the nature of the second Chamber that we all seek earlier this year, to reflect carefully whether the amendment tabled is not sufficiently valid that it ought to command support, even if it does not go as far as they would wish to ensure that all appointments to the second Chamber are in the hands at least of an independent commission, not of the Prime Minister alone.

The hon. Member for Greenock and Inverclyde expressed concern about the amendment in so far as it refers to Northern Ireland. I appreciate that concern, but in truth there is nothing in it that prevents the appointment of peers who come from Northern Ireland, if the Prime Minister so wishes. Of course, it might be more desirable that that, too, should be in the hands of an appointments commission. They will not necessarily be Cross Benchers, but, in itself, there is nothing to prevent that in the amendment and the hon. Gentleman should not be deterred from following his conscience, if that is what is troubling him in this matter, on that single issue.

Finally, it has been said that this is all temporary and that we should not spend so much time on measures that are only temporary. This House has spent hours on the Bill—a measure that we are told is to be temporary. If the Government had been willing to go to the trouble of framing some sensible amendments to the Lords amendment, it would have taken very little more time.

The Government's position is untenable. They indulge in pious hand-wringing about the good intentions of the House of Lords, but they refuse to do anything. It is for those of us who believe in accountability and reducing the powers of patronage to ensure that our message is brought home to the Government this evening.

10.15 pm

Mr. Tipping

I should like to reply briefly to some of the points that have been raised. I am conscious that I need to make rapid progress.

It has been said that this is the first opportunity that the House has had to discuss the matter, but it was discussed at length in Committee. My hon. Friend the Member for Greenock and Inverclyde (Dr. Godman) argued strongly with a Scottish voice, as ever. I am conscious of the points that he made and we shall ensure that they are taken forward.

Some Labour Members, particularly my hon. Friends the Members for Thurrock (Mr. Mackinlay) and for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Mr. Fisher), have argued that our proposals do not go far enough. They have radical views on the second stage. They were right to point out that the amendment is about only the Cross Benchers.

Several hon. Members have asked me what the Government's plans are. They are set out at some length in chapter six of the White Paper on reform of the House of Lords. I ask hon. Members to look at that. Some have argued that the amendment is not very different from the Government's plans. They are right. The two are very similar.

That brings me to the key issue: why is there no such measure in the Bill? The answer is very straightforward. We want to go down a tried and tested route—one that has been set by Nolan and Neill and that we know can and will work. We are also conscious that the interim House will be a transitional and temporary measure. We do not want to give the impression that the interim stage will be very long.

Several hon. Members have asked us to make progress. We are determined to do so and we are happy to be judged on our record.

Question put, That this House disagrees with the Lords in the said amendment:—

The House divided: Ayes 353, Noes 133.

Division No.319]	[10.17 pm
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane	Caplin, Ivor
Adams, Mrs Irene (Paisley N)	Casale, Roger
Ainger, Nick	Caton, Martin
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)	Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)
Alexander, Douglas	Chaytor, David
Allan, Richard	Chidgey, David
Allen, Graham	Clapham, Michael
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)	Clark, Rt Hon Dr David (S Shields)
Anderson, Janet (Rossendale)	Clark, Dr Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands)
Armstrong, Rt Hon Ms Hilary
Ashton, Joe	Clark, Paul (Gillingham)
Atherton, Ms Candy	Clarke, Charles (Norwich S)
Atkins, Charlotte	Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)
Ballard, Jackie	Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)
Barnes, Harry	Clelland, David
Barron, Kevin	Clwyd, Ann
Bayley, Hugh	Coaker, Vernon
Beard, Nigel	Coffey, Ms Ann
Beckett, Rt Hon Mrs Margaret	Cohen, Harry
Bell, Stuart (Middlesbrough)	Coleman, Iain
Benn, Hilary (Leeds C)	Connarty, Michael
Benn, Rt Hon Tony (Chesterfield)	Cooper, Yvette
Bennett, Andrew F	Corbett, Robin
Benton, Joe	Corston, Jean
Bermingham, Gerald	Cotter, Brian
Berry, Roger	Cousins, Jim
Best, Harold	Cranston, Ross
Betts, Clive	Cryer, Mrs Ann (Keighley)
Blackman, Liz	Cryer, John (Hornchurch)
Blears, Ms Hazel	Cummings, John
Blizzard, Bob	Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try S)
Boateng, Rt Hon Paul	Darting, Rt Hon Alistair
Borrow, David	Darvill, Keith
Bradley, Keith (Withington)	Davey, Edward (Kingston)
Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)	Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)
Bradshaw, Ben	Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)
Brinton, Mrs Helen	Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H)
Brown, Russell (Dumfries)	Dawson, Hilton
Browne, Desmond	Dean, Mrs Janet
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)	Dismore, Andrew
Burden, Richard	Dobbin, Jim
Burgon, Colin	Donohoe, Brian H
Butler, Mrs Christine	Doran, Frank
Byers, Rt Hon Stephen	Dowd, Jim
Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)	Drew, David
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)	Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)
Campbell, Rt Hon Menzies (NE Fife)	Edwards, Huw
	Efford, Clive
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)	Ellman, Mrs Louise
Campbell-Savours, Dale	Fearn, Ronnie

Field, Rt Hon Frank	Keetch, Paul
Fisher, Mark	Kelly, Ms Ruth
Fitzpatrick, Jim	Kemp, Fraser
Fitzsimons, Lorna	Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)
Flint, Caroline	Khabra, Piara S
Flynn, Paul	Kidney, David
Follett, Barbara	Kilfoyle, Peter
Foster, Rt Hon Derek	King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth)
Foster, Don (Bath)	Kumar, Dr Ashok
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings)	Ladyman, Dr Stephen
Foster, Michael J (Worcester)	Lawrence, Ms Jackie
Fyfe, Maria	Laxton, Bob
Gapes, Mike	Lepper, David
Gardiner, Barry	Leslie, Christopher
George, Bruce (Walsall S)	Levitt, Tom
Gerrard, Neil	Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)
Gibson, Dr Ian	Lewis, Terry (Worsley)
Gilroy, Mrs Linda	Liddell, Rt Hon Mrs Helen
Godman, Dr Norman A	Linton, Martin
Godsiff, Roger	Livsey, Richard
Goggins, Paul	Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)
Golding, Mrs Llin	Lock, David
Gordon, Mrs Eileen	Love, Andrew
Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)	McAvoy, Thomas
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)	McCabe, Steve
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)	McCartney, Rt Hon Ian (Makerfield)
Grocott, Bruce
Grogan, John	Macdonald, Calum
Gunnell, John	McDonnell, John
Hain, Peter	McGuire, Mrs Anne
Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)	McIsaac, Shona
Hall, Patrick (Bedford)	McKenna, Mrs Rosemary
Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)	Mackinlay, Andrew
Hanson, David	Maclennan, Rt Hon Robert
Heal, Mrs Sylvia	MacShane, Denis
Healey, John	Mactaggart, Fiona
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)	McWalter, Tony
Hepburn, Stephen	Mahon, Mrs Alice
Heppell, John	Mallaber, Judy
Hesford, Stephen	Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)
Hewitt, Ms Patricia	Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury)
Hill, Keith	Marshall, David (Shettleston)
Hinchliffe, David	Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)
Hodge, Ms Margaret	Marshall-Andrews, Robert
Hoey, Kate	Martlew, Eric
Hood, Jimmy	Maxton, John
Hoon, Rt Hon Geoffrey	Meacher, Rt Hon Michael
Hope, Phil	Meale, Alan
Howarth, Alan (Newport E)	Merron, Gillian
Howarth, George (Knowsley N)	Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley)
Howells, Dr Kim	Milburn, Rt Hon Alan
Hoyle, Lindsay	Miller, Andrew
Hughes, Ms Beverley (Stretford)	Mitchell, Austin
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)	Moffatt, Laura
Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)	Moonie, Dr Lewis
Humble, Mrs Joan	Moore, Michael
Hurst, Alan	Moran, Ms Margaret
Hutton, John	Morgan, Ms Julie (Cardiff N)
Iddon, Dr Brian	Morley, Elliot
Illsley, Eric	Morris, Rt Hon Ms Estelle (B'ham Yardley)
Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)
Jamieson, David	Mountford, Kali
Jenkins, Brian	Mudie, George
Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)	Mullin, Chris
	Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)
Jones, Rt Hon Barry (Alyn)	Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)
Jones, Helen (Warrington N)	Murphy, Rt Hon Paul (Torfaen)
Jones, Ms Jenny (Wolverh'ton SW)	Naysmith, Dr Doug
	Norris, Dan
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)	O'Brien, Bill (Normanton)
Jones, Dr Lynne (Selly Oak)	O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)	O'Hara, Eddie
Jowell, Rt Hon Ms Tessa	Olner, Bill
Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald	O'Neill, Martin
Keeble, Ms Sally	Öpik, Lembit
Keen, Alan (Feltham & Heston)	Organ, Mrs Diana

Osborne, Ms Sandra	Soley, Clive
Palmer, Dr Nick	Southworth, Ms Helen
Pearson, Ian	Spellar, John
Pendry, Tom	Squire, Ms Rachel
Perham, Ms Linda	Starkey, Dr Phyllis
Pickthall, Colin	Steinberg, Gerry
Pike, Peter L	Stevenson, George
Plaskitt, James	Stewart, David (Inverness E)
Pollard, Kerry	Stewart, Ian (Eccles)
Pond, Chris	Stinchcombe, Paul
Pope, Greg	Stoate, Dr Howard
Pound, Stephen	Strang, Rt Hon Dr Gavin
Powell, Sir Raymond	Stringer, Graham
Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)	Stuart, Ms Gisela
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)	Taylor, Rt Hon Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)
Prescott, Rt Hon John
Primarolo, Dawn	Taylor, David (NW Leics)
Prosser, Gwyn	Temple-Morris, Peter
Purchase, Ken	Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W)
Quinn, Lawrie	Timms, Stephen
Radice, Rt Hon Giles	Tipping, Paddy
Rammell, Bill	Todd, Mark
Rapson, Syd	Touhig, Don
Raynsford, Nick	Trickett, Jon
Reed, Andrew (Loughborough)	Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)
Reid, Rt Hon Dr John (Hamilton N)	Turner, Dr Desmond (Kemptown)
Rendel, David	Turner, Dr George (NW Norfolk)
Roche, Mrs Barbara	Turner, Neil (Wigan)
Rooker, Jeff	Twigg, Derek (Halton)
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)	Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)
Rowlands, Ted	Tyler, Paul
Roy, Frank	Tynan, Bill
Ruane, Chris	Vis, Dr Rudi
Ruddock, Joan	Walley, Ms Joan
Russell, Bob (Colchester)	Ward, Ms Claire
Russell, Ms Christine (Chester)	Wareing, Robert N
Ryan, Ms Joan	Watts, David
Salter, Martin	White, Brian
Sanders, Adrian	Whitehead, Dr Alan
Sarwar, Mohammad	Wicks, Malcolm
Savidge, Malcolm	Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W)
Sedgemore, Brian
Sheerman, Barry	Williams, Mrs Betty (Conwy)
Shipley, Ms Debra	Wills, Michael
Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)	Wilson, Brian
Singh, Marsha	Winnick, David
Skinner, Dennis	Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)
Smith, Rt Hon Andrew (Oxford E)	Wise, Audrey
Smith, Angela (Basildon)	Wood, Mike
Smith, Rt Hon Chris (Islington S)	Woolas, Phil
Smith, Miss Geraldine (Morecambe & Lunesdale)	Worthington, Tony
	Wray, James
Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)	Wyatt, Derek
Smith, John (Glamorgan)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)	Tellers for the Ayes:
Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns)	Mr. Tony McNulty and
Snape, Peter	Mr. Gerry Sutcliffe.

NOES
Ancram, Rt Hon Michael	Burns, Simon
Arbuthnot, Rt Hon James	Cash, William
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)	Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet)
Baldry, Tony
Beggs, Roy	Clappison, James
Bercow, John	Clark, Dr Michael (Rayleigh)
Beresford, Sir Paul	Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Blunt, Crispin
Body, Sir Richard	Collins, Tim
Boswell, Tim	Colvin, Michael
Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)	Cormack, Sir Patrick
Bottomley, Rt Hon Mrs Virginia	Cran, James
Brady, Graham	Curry, Rt Hon David
Brazier, Julian	Davies, Quentin (Grantham)
Brooke, Rt Hon Peter	Davis, Rt Hon David (Haltemprice & Howden)
Browning, Mrs Angela
Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)	Donaldson, Jeffrey

Dorrell, Rt Hon Stephen	Nicholls, Patrick
Duncan, Alan	O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)
Emery, Rt Hon Sir Peter	Ottaway, Richard
Evans, Nigel	Page, Richard
Faber, David	Paice, James
Fabricant, Michael	Paterson, Owen
Fallon, Michael	Pickles, Eric
Flight, Howard	Prior, David
Forth, Rt Hon Eric	Randall, John
Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman	Redwood, Rt Hon John
Fox, Dr Liam	Robathan, Andrew
Fraser, Christopher	Robertson, Laurence
Gale, Roger	Ross, William (E Lond'y)
Garnier, Edward	Rowe, Andrew (Faversham)
Gibb, Nick	Ruffley, David
Gill, Christopher	St Aubyn, Nick
Gorman, Mrs Teresa	Sayeed, Jonathan
Gray, James	Shephard, Rt Hon Mrs Gillian
Green, Damian	Shepherd, Richard
Greenway, John	Simpson, Keith (Mid-Norfolk)
Grieve, Dominic	Soames, Nicholas
Gummer, Rt Hon John	Spelman, Mrs Caroline
Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archie	Spicer, Sir Michael
Hawkins, Nick	Spring, Richard
Heathcoat-Amory, Rt Hon David	Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John
Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael	Streeter, Gary
Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas	Swayne, Desmond
Horam, John	Syms, Robert
Jack, Rt Hon Michael	Tapsell, Sir Peter
Jackson, Robert (Wantage)	Taylor, Ian (Esher & Walton)
Jenkin, Bernard	Taylor, Rt Hon John D (Strangford)
King, Rt Hon Tom (Bridgwater)	Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Kirkbride, Miss Julie	Townend, John
Laing, Mrs Eleanor	Tredinnick, David
Lansley, Andrew	Trend, Michael
Leigh, Edward	Tyrie, Andrew
Letwin, Oliver	Viggers, Peter
Lewis, Dr Julian (New Forest E)	Walter, Robert
Lidington, David	Waterson, Nigel
Lilley, Rt Hon Peter	Wells, Bowen
Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)	Whitney, Sir Raymond
Loughton, Tim	Whittingdale, John
Luff, Peter	Wilkinson, John
MacGregor, Rt Hon John	Willetts, David
McIntosh, Miss Anne	Willis, Phil
MacKay, Rt Hon Andrew	Wilshire, David
Maclean, Rt Hon David	Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)
McLoughlin, Patrick	Woodward, Shaun
Malins, Humfrey	Young, Rt Hon Sir George
Mates, Michael
Mawhinney, Rt Hon Sir Brian	Tellers for the Noes:
May, Mrs Theresa	Mrs. Jacqui Lait and
Moss, Malcolm	Mr. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown.

Question accordingly agreed to.

Lords amendment disagreed to.

Lords amendment No. 3 agreed to.