HC Deb 09 November 1999 vol 337 cc924-34

Lords amendment in lieu of Lords amendment No. 20: No. 20B, after clause 18, to insert the following new clause—War pensions for widows: entitlement— (" .—(1) Subject to subsection (2), a widow in receipt of a widow's pension under any of the enactments mentioned in subsection (3) ("the DSS pension") and in receipt of a pension paid under the Armed Forces Pension scheme shall on remarriage or when living together as husband and wife with a member of the opposite sex only retain the Forces Family Pension (attributable). (2) Subsection (1) does not apply to a widow in receipt of a basic pension under section 44 of the Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992; and a widow in receipt of such a pension who has remarried or is living together as husband and wife with a member of the opposite sex may not retain the Forces Family Pension (attributable). (3) The enactments referred to in subsection (1) are—

  1. (a) the Naval, Military and Air Forces etc. (Disablement and Death) Service Pensions Order 1983, and any order re-enacting the provisions of that order,
  2. (b) the Personal Injuries (Civilians) Scheme 1983, and any subsequent scheme made under the Personal Injuries (Emergency Provisions) Act 1939,
  3. (c) any scheme made under the Pensions (Navy, Army, Air Force and Mercantile Marine) Act 1939 or the Polish Resettlement Act 1947 applying the provisions of any such order as is referred to in paragraph (a),
  4. (d) the order made under section 1(5) of the Ulster Defence Regiment Act 1969 concerning pensions and other grants in respect of disablement or death due to service in the Ulster Defence Regiment. ")

5.59 pm
The Minister of State, Department of Social Security (Mr. Jeff Rooker)

I beg to move, That this House disagrees with the Lords in the said amendment.

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael J. Martin)

I must draw the attention of the House to the fact that the House's financial privileges are involved in all four Lords amendments for consideration today, which is to say Lords amendments Nos. 20B, 42D, 43E and 43F. If the House were to agree to any of those Lords amendments, I would ensure that the appropriate entry was made in the Journal.

Mr. Andrew Robathan (Blaby)

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Last week, the Minister of State mentioned the Parliament Act 1911 and said: That legislation can be used to push a Bill through the House on a fast-track basis only if the Bill takes the same form as it took when it was introduced …The reality, as the Clerks will confirm, is that the Parliament Act cannot be used to push through the amended Bill."—[Official Report, 3 November 1999; Vol. 337, c. 332.] I have discussed that with the Clerk at the Table and the Clerk of the House. It will not surprise hon. Members to learn that it is a complicated matter. However, it appears that the Bill could pass amended if the Lords amendments were agreed. Could you clarify that?

Mr. Deputy Speaker

I have listened with interest to the argument put to me. Madam Speaker is charged under the Parliament Acts with the duty of giving certificates on whether the procedures of the Acts may be applied to particular Bills. I do not wish to anticipate any future decisions that she may have to take in that regard. In the meantime, Members might like to consult pages 569 and 570 of "Erskine May".

Mr. Rooker

I will keep my remarks brief because there is a guillotine on all four amendments. Lords amendment No. 20B refers to our debate last week on war widows.

The amendment that the Lords have placed before us today, as they are fully entitled to do, is a modified version of the amendment that the House voted to overturn last week to allow forces widows whose husbands' death was due to service to keep occupational pensions for life. The new amendment restricts the change further by excluding those widows in receipt of a category A state retirement pension—in other words those with a retirement pension in their own right, who by definition would probably have been working for at least 10 years to receive that pension.

6 pm

In a week like this week, we obviously recognise that we have to look after the widows of those who died as a result of service, but I repeat what I said last week. The matter is under inquiry and review by the Ministry of Defence and it is not appropriate to place the amendment in the Bill. I do not defend the argument on cost grounds, although I gave the House a series of costs last week that could escalate as a knock-on effect of the amendment.

Last week, in answer to a specific question from my hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) at column 389 of Hansard, I said that the amendment would cost the MOD less than £15 million annually. I say to my hon. Friend, whom I see in his place, that the cost of the amendment would actually be a good deal less than that. One has to be careful about the kind of cohort with which one is dealing. I give a rough figure, but we cannot be held to it. If future and current widows affected by the amendment were taken into account, the cost would be about £3 million. That would not include those who have already remarried. I must, however, be very precise about the general figures at issue.

I quoted other knock-on figures last week for the public sector which I will not repeat tonight because they are on the record and they stand. However, I wanted to put that extra figure from the MOD on the record so that we could see the amount in relation to the group of widows in question. That is important.

Hon. Members are fully entitled to make representations to the MOD. I confirm to the House that I have kept the commitment that I gave to the House last week. I have made the most urgent and vigorous representations to my right hon. Friend as a result of the debate. I did more than send him a copy of Hansard. I wrote to him and even added my own postscript to the letter. I registered the mood from both sides of the House. With respect, I think that the other place also did that because the Opposition Front-Bench spokesman there said that the figures had been placed on the record and the Government could be held accountable to them. Indeed, those on the Opposition Front Bench did not vote on the matter and in the subsequent Division the majority was somewhat less than before. I hope that the House does not wish to divide on the amendment tonight and that it will accept my motion.

The matter is being given serious consideration. The MOD will publish the review by next summer and it will be available for full public consultation. I accept that I cannot answer on the reasons for the delay, but since my speech last week it has been reaffirmed in the other place by my right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Social Security, on the say-so of my noble Friend the Minister for Defence Procurement, that the report will be published by next summer. There will then be full public consultation. We are not dismissing the issue without fair consideration. We do not dismiss the amendment on cost grounds alone. Who would dismiss it on a perfunctory £3 million, which is all that is involved for this narrow cohort? There are, however, other considerations to take into account. It is right that we should do that and not accept the amendment.

Both Houses of Parliament will have an opportunity within a relatively short period following a consultation to come to a conclusion, so I hope that the House will accept the motion that I have put before it tonight.

Mr. Michael Trend (Windsor)

I want to speak, albeit briefly, in support of the Lords amendment, which is a great modification on the original. It tightens still further the ring fence around the group of war widows represented so well by the War Widows Association of Great Britain. Let us be clear that we are talking about post-1973 widows of service men who die or are killed in the line of duty while still serving. Moreover, we are talking only about those who might decide to remarry. The new Lords amendment further defines the group by excluding all widows in receipt of the basic state pension—those over 60 years of age.

The service community as a whole and, I think, the general public, recognise that war widows are a special case. War widows just over 60 are now prepared to take themselves out of the group in order to focus attention where it is most desperately needed—on the younger widows, especially those with children who, by definition, do not have fathers.

I think it is fair to say that when we debated the matter less than a week ago, the Minister was not as well briefed as he would have liked to have been. He promised that he would hotfoot it to the MOD and make urgent representations, and I am glad to know that he has. That is what I would have expected of him. I am sure that he, too, will have reached the view that we are dealing with a special case. We are probably talking about only hundreds of widows out of the maximum 2, 500 that we discussed before.

Mr. Tom Clarke (Coatbridge and Chryston)

Like most of my hon. Friends, I followed the discussion yesterday in another place with great interest. The hon. Gentleman will recall that the spokeswoman for his party accepted the assurances given by the Minister and said that she would not push the matter and would not ask this House to discuss it. What has changed since yesterday in the minds of the Conservative Front-Bench team in this place?

Mr. Trend

I do not accept that there has been a change of mind between the two teams. This is the first time that the House of Commons has had a chance to debate and take a view on the new amendment. It clarifies in an important way the most important feature, which is the ring fence. If the ring fence is solid and in place and if the Government are determined to keep to it, it is sufficient.

We all agree that our service men and women are unique among people in the public service. They cannot join a trades union; they do not get paid overtime; they are excluded from the maximum working hours legislation. They are on duty round the clock. They have long-term contracts of a sort that do not exist elsewhere in the public service. They are posted throughout the world with great disruption to their family life, whether they are in front-line positions overseas or in barracks, preparing for combat. They are the only group of people who are sent on service knowing full well that they should not assume that they will return alive. We cannot, however, take them for granted.

As the Minister knows, there is a real problem with the recruitment and retention of service men and women. In the past few days the Minister will also have been warned of the supposed knock-on effect of the amendment. As I have told the House before, that effect simply need not occur if the Government find the will to ring-fence the war widows. If, even at this stage, further tightening amendments can be found which will help to achieve that ring fencing, the Government will have our full support in speeding them through Parliament.

The Minister has referred to the supposed costs. None of us can be sure about the cost because we do not know how many widows will choose to remarry. All those widows who remarry will save the Exchequer roughly £4, 500 by relinquishing their DSS pension. That will be a net gain, and should be recognised as such in the overall calculations. I hope that the Minister will hotfoot it again to the Treasury to show how minuscule the figures are.

I am disappointed that the Minister's journey round the Departments has hardened his heart. On the Conservative Benches there are many who dealt with the matter when we were in government. They have to this day a deep regret that they did not overcome departmental obstinacy on this most deserving group of people. The Minister must not hide behind departmental reviews. There have been many in the past and they have all agreed that the war widows should retain their armed forces pension if they remarry. I can tell that the Minister has reached that view privately. I profoundly hope that he will not find himself one day regretting that he left it too late to do anything about it. I intend to divide the House on the matter to show our strength of feeling and that the campaign will continue.

Mr. Tam Dalyell (Linlithgow)

I shall vote with the Government on this amendment. I understand perfectly the difficulties and complexities of the figures. I do not blame my hon. Friend the Minister of State in any way; indeed, I thank him for making inquiries. However, the point about the Ministry of Defence waiting until next summer is nonsense. If the MOD can make up its mind so quickly—as was done at Rambouillet in a matter of hours—to bomb the hell out of Serbia—

Mr. David Winnick (Walsall, North)

Keep to the subject.

Mr. Dalyell

This is very much the subject. If the same expedition were to be shown in this matter as in some others, it could be dealt with far more quickly than next summer. It could be dealt with by Christmas.

Mr. David Heath (Somerton and Frome)

Like the right hon. Member for Coatbridge and Chryston (Mr. Clarke), I detect a scintilla of inconsistency in the position of Conservative spokesmen. The last time that we discussed this matter in this place, the hon. Member for Windsor (Mr. Trend) was proud to announce his conversion, but it did not seem to have been communicated to his colleagues in another place. However, a double conversion is all the more welcome and I am grateful for it. At least the Liberal Democrats have been wholly consistent.

I shall not detain the House by repeating arguments that were adequately made on a previous occasion. As some Members have pointed out, the amendment has been slightly tightened since our previous discussions of the matter. It modernises the position and, most important, it is right. It would save money for the Exchequer, although we cannot prove it through financial forecasts. It does not set a precedent, but I have no intention of reciting a limerick to prove it, as did my noble Friend the Earl Russell in another place. The people who serve in our armed services and are killed in that capacity are a very special group. The measure will have the additional benefit of improving recruitment and retention. That too is important for the MOD.

Other hon. Members have pointed out that this week is an especially poignant one in which to discuss this subject—as we wear poppies in our lapels, two days away from the 11 th day of the 11 th month. I hope that we shall send the particular message to service men and women and their families that not only do we remember those who have fought, but we realise the sacrifices that the forces make every day.

I respect the Minister of State, who has approached the subject with his customary courtesy and integrity. I am grateful to him for his observations, although I am slightly saddened by the fact that no Minister from the MOD was able to spare two minutes to attend the debate—unlike what happened when the matter was debated in the other place. I hope that the House will show its firm intention and that the point will be made this evening.

Mr. Harry Barnes (North-East Derbyshire)

On the last occasion we discussed this matter—albeit under a slightly different measure—I voted with the Opposition. The arguments made by the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats at that time and tonight are correct, but, as the Opposition spokesmen in the Lords have accepted the assurances of my hon. Friend the Minister of State that it is unreasonable to press the matter to a vote, I cannot join the Opposition in the Division Lobby tonight.

I raise two issues with my hon. Friend. First, he states that the measures can be dealt with properly and fully in a review. He has given sufficient commitment to show that he has considered the arguments made in this place and that he considers that the matter is serious and that it should be dealt with in the review. However, if there is a manifest defect, it could be put right by the measure before us. It would thus be open to the Government to accept the proposal, which is a compromise compared to the measure that we debated previously.

Secondly, my hon. Friend argued that his case was not made solely on ground of cost. However, the reason that the Commons gave to the Lords for not accepting the Lords measure was based purely on cost. Although some unfortunate inconsistencies remain, I shall not, however, join Opposition Members in the Division Lobby.

6.15 pm
Mr. Crispin Blunt (Reigate)

I note that this evening, like last week, the Minister cannot begin to defend the way in which he invites his colleagues to vote on the ground that it is right.

We have the promise of a review by next summer. However, for the Ministry of Defence, "by next summer" is a somewhat flexible concept. I should be much happier if we had a date, rather than a season, for the review. We should not overturn the Lords amendment on the grounds that the findings of a review will be published at some time in the future, and that there will then be a lengthy consultation period. Even if the war widows measure were included in that review, and it would be appalling and a scandal if it were not, widows and their children would have to wait all that time before they could make sense of their future status—to remarry, to have fathers for their children.

We should not ask war widows to wait any longer. In this week of all weeks, when we are about to attend remembrance parades, it is wholly wrong to expect them to continue the sacrifice that their husbands have already made. In another place, the Baroness Strange stated that the matter was honourable and right. It is honourable and right for us to support the Lords amendment.

Dr. Norman A. Godman (Greenock and Inverclyde)

I am more than happy to support the Government, although I share the reservations voiced by my hon. and old Friend the Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) and the hon. Member for Reigate (Mr. Blunt) about the length of the review process.

Tonight, we have rightly paid tribute to our service men and women—to their bravery, stoicism, fortitude, gallantry and loyalty. The Minister may criticise me for my sloppy research, but will the position of the widows of Gurkha soldiers be included in the review? All the tributes that have been paid to our service men and women must also embrace the bravery and courage of that remarkable band of men, who are currently showing us what fine, brave soldiers they are. Will the position of their widows be part of the review?

Mr. Rooker

I do not have a direct answer for my hon. Friend, as I speak on behalf of the Secretary of State for Defence. However, "I sincerely hope so" is the answer that I give my hon. Friend. The MOD will conduct a full review. It is one of four Departments currently reviewing their pension schemes.

I understand the points made by the hon. Member for Reigate (Mr. Blunt), and recognise the expertise with which he speaks, as he was formerly a special adviser to the Ministry of Defence. The matter is a sensitive one. Members of the other place accepted that the review was genuine and that the date was a season—the summer. That is the best date which I could obtain from my colleagues at the MOD; there will be time to put pressure on them to be more specific. However, there will be a full consultation.

This issue will not go away. I have been as open as I possibly can with the House about the figures. It is not a monetary issue. I point out to my hon. Friend the Member for North-East Derbyshire (Mr. Barnes) that, if the House overturns the amendment and sends back a message to the Lords, the message will be couched in the language of public finances, because that is the prerogative of this House. However, those are not the reasons that I use to advance my argument for resisting the amendment, although the nature of the exchange of messages between the two Houses is such that such language must be used. I would not want hon. Members to think that, because the message will refer to public finances, the Government rest our case on public finances—we do not.

Question put, That this House disagrees with the Lords in the said amendment:—

The House divided: Ayes 361, Noes 178.

Division No. 311] [6. 20 pm
Abbott, Ms Diane Chisholm, Malcolm
Adams, Mrs Irene (Paisley N) Church, Ms Judith
Ainger, Nick Clapham, Michael
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE) Clark, Rt Hon Dr David (S Shields)
Alexander, Douglas Clark, Dr Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands)
Allen, Graham
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E) Clark, Paul (Gillingham)
Anderson, Janet (Rossendale) Clarke, Charles (Norwich S)
Armstrong, Rt Hon Ms Hilary Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)
Ashton, Joe Clarke, Rt Hon Tom (Coatbridge)
Atherton, Ms Candy Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)
Atkins, Charlotte Clelland, David
Barron, Kevin Clwyd, Ann
Bayley, Hugh Coaker, Vernon
Beard, Nigel Coffey, Ms Ann
Beckett, Rt Hon Mrs Margaret Coleman, Iain
Bell, Stuart (Middlesbrough) Connarty, Michael
Benn, Hilary (Leeds C) Cooper, Yvette
Benn, Rt Hon Tony (Chesterfield) Corbett, Robin
Benton, Joe Corbyn, Jeremy
Bermingham, Gerald Corston, Jean
Berry, Roger Cousins, Jim
Best, Harold Cox, Tom
Blackman, Liz Cranston, Ross
Blair, Rt Hon Tony Cryer, Mrs Ann (Keighley)
Blears, Ms Hazel Cryer, John (Hornchurch)
Blizzard, Bob Cummings, John
Blunkett, Rt Hon David Cunliffe, Lawrence
Boateng, Rt Hon Paul Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr Jack (Copeland)
Borrow, David
Bradley, Keith (Withington) Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try S)
Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin) Curtis-Thomas, Mrs Claire
Bradshaw, Ben Dalyell, Tam
Brinton, Mrs Helen Darling, Rt Hon Alistair
Brown, Rt Hon Gordon (Dunfermline E) Darvill, Keith
Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)
Brown, Rt Hon Nick (Newcastle E) Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)
Brown, Russell (Dumfries) Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)
Browne, Desmond Dawson, Hilton
Buck, Ms Karen Dean, Mrs Janet
Burden, Richard Denham, John
Burgon, Colin Dismore, Andrew
Butler, Mrs Christine Dobbin, Jim
Byers, Rt Hon Stephen Dobson, Rt Hon Frank
Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth) Donohoe, Brian H
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge) Doran, Frank
Campbell-Savours, Dale Dowd, Jim
Caplin, Ivor Drew, David
Casale, Roger Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth
Caton, Martin Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)
Chapman, Ben (Wirral S) Edwards, Huw
Chaytor, David Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs Louise Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald
Field, Rt Hon Frank Keeble, Ms Sally
Fisher, Mark Keen, Alan (Feltham & Heston)
Fitzpatrick, Jim Keen, Ann (Brentford & Isleworth)
Fitzsimons, Lorna Kelly, Ms Ruth
Flint, Caroline Kemp, Fraser
Follett, Barbara Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)
Foster, Rt Hon Derek Khabra, Piara S
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings) Kidney, David
Foster, Michael J (Worcester) Kilfoyle, Peter
Fyfe, Maria King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth)
Galbraith, Sam King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green)
Gapes, Mike Ladyman, Dr Stephen
Gardiner, Barry Lawrence, Ms Jackie
George, Bruce (Walsall S) Laxton, Bob
Gerrard, Neil Lepper, David
Gilroy, Mrs Linda Leslie, Christopher
Godman, Dr Norman A Levitt, Tom
Godsiff, Roger Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)
Goggins, Paul Liddell, Rt Hon Mrs Helen
Golding, Mrs Llin Linton, Martin
Gordon, Mrs Eileen Livingstone, Ken
Griffiths, Jane (Reading E) Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S) Lock, David
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend) Love, Andrew
Grocott, Bruce McAllion, John
Grogan, John McAvoy, Thomas
Gunnell, John McCabe, Steve
Hain, Peter McCartney, Rt Hon Ian (Makerfield)
Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)
Hall, Patrick (Bedford) McDonagh, Siobhain
Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE) Macdonald, Calum
Hanson, David McDonnell, John
Harman, Rt Hon Ms Harriet McFall, John
Heal, Mrs Sylvia McGuire, Mrs Anne
Healey, John McIsaac, Shona
Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N) McKenna, Mrs Rosemary
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich) Mackinlay, Andrew
Hepburn, Stephen McNulty, Tony
Heppell, John MacShane, Denis
Hesford, Stephen Mactaggart, Fiona
Hewitt, Ms Patricia McWalter, Tony
Hill, Keith Mallaber, Judy
Hinchliffe, David Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)
Hodge, Ms Margaret Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury)
Hoey, Kate Marshall, David (Shettleston)
Home Robertson, John Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)
Hood, Jimmy Marshall-Andrews, Robert
Hoon, Rt Hon Geoffrey Martlew, Eric
Hope, Phil Maxton, John
Hopkins, Kelvin Meacher, Rt Hon Michael
Howarth, Alan (Newport E) Meale, Alan
Howarth, George (Knowsley N) Merron, Gillian
Howells, Dr Kim Milburn, Rt Hon Alan
Hoyle, Lindsay Miller, Andrew
Hughes, Ms Beverley (Stretford) Moffatt, Laura
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N) Moonie, Dr Lewis
Humble, Mrs Joan Moran, Ms Margaret
Hurst, Alan Morgan, Ms Julie (Cardiff N)
Hutton, John Morley, Elliot
Iddon, Dr Brian Morris, Rt Hon Ms Estelle (B'ham Yardley)
Illsley, Eric
Ingram, Rt Hon Adam Morris, Rt Hon John (Aberavon)
Jackson, Ms Glenda (Hampstead) Mountford, Kali
Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough) Mowlam, Rt Hon Marjorie
Jamieson, David Mudie, George
Jenkins, Brian Mullin, Chris
Johnson, Alan (Hull W & Hessle) Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)
Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield) Murphy, Rt Hon Paul (Torfaen)
Naysmith, Dr Doug
Jones, Rt Hon Barry (Alyn) Norris, Dan
Jones, Helen (Warrington N) O'Brien, Bill (Normanton)
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C) O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
Jones, Dr Lynne (Selly Oak) O'Hara, Eddie
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S) Olner, Bill
Jowell, Rt Hon Ms Tessa O'Neill, Martin
Organ, Mrs Diana Spellar, John
Osborne, Ms Sandra Squire, Ms Rachel
Palmer, Dr Nick Starkey, Dr Phyllis
Pearson, Ian Steinberg, Gerry
Pendry, Tom Stevenson, George
Perham, Ms Linda Stewart, David (Inverness E)
Pickthall, Colin Stewart, Ian (Eccles)
Pike, Peter L Stinchcombe, Paul
Plaskitt, James Stoate, Dr Howard
Pollard, Kerry Strang, Rt Hon Dr Gavin
Pond, Chris Straw, Rt Hon Jack
Pound, Stephen Stringer, Graham
Powell, Sir Raymond Stuart, Ms Gisela
Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E) Sutcliffe, Gerry
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle) Taylor, Rt Hon Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)
Prescott, Rt Hon John
Primarolo, Dawn Taylor, Ms Dari (Stockton S)
Prosser, Gwyn Temple-Morris, Peter
Purchase, Ken Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)
Quin, Rt Hon Ms Joyce Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W)
Quinn, Lawrie Timms, Stephen
Rammell, Bill Tipping, Paddy
Rapson, Syd Todd, Mark
Raynsford, Nick Touhig, Don
Reed, Andrew (Loughborough) Trickett, Jon
Reid, Rt Hon Dr John (Hamilton N) Truswell, Paul
Robinson, Geoffrey (Cov'try NW) Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)
Roche, Mrs Barbara Turner, Dr Desmond (Kemptown)
Rooker, Jeff Turner, Dr George (NW Norfolk)
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W) Turner, Neil (Wigan)
Rowlands, Ted Twigg, Derek (Halton)
Roy, Frank Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)
Ruane, Chris Tynan, Bill
Ruddock, Joan Vaz, Keith
Russell, Ms Christine (Chester) Walley, Ms Joan
Ryan, Ms Joan Ward, Ms Claire
Salter, Martin Wareing, Robert N
Sarwar, Mohammad Watts, David
Savidge, Malcolm White, Brian
Sawford, Phil Whitehead, Dr Alan
Sedgemore, Brian Wicks, Malcolm
Shaw, Jonathan Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W)
Sheerman, Barry
Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert Williams, Alan W(E Carmarthen)
Shipley, Ms Debra Williams, Mrs Betty (Conwy)
Short, Rt Hon Clare Wills, Michael
Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S) Wilson, Brian
Singh, Marsha Winnick, David
Skinner, Dennis Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)
Smith, Rt Hon Andrew (Oxford E) Wise, Audrey
Smith, Angela (Basildon) Wood, Mike
Smith, Rt Hon Chris (Islington S) Woolas, Phil
Smith, Jacqui (Redditch) Worthington, Tony
Smith, John (Glamorgan) Wright, Dr Tony (Cannock)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent) Wyatt, Derek
Snape, Peter Tellers for the Ayes:
Soley, Clive Mr. Clive Betts and
Southworth, Ms Helen Mr. Greg Pope.
Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey) Boswell, Tim
Allan, Richard Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)
Amess, David Bottomley, Rt Hon Mrs Virginia
Ancram, Rt Hon Michael Brady, Graham
Arbuthnot, Rt Hon James Brake, Tom
Atkinson, David (Bour'mth E) Brand, Dr Peter
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham) Brazier, Julian
Baker, Norman Breed, Colin
Baldry, Tony Brooke, Rt Hon Peter
Ballard, Jackie Browning, Mrs Angela
Beith, Rt Hon A J Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)
Bercow, John Burnett, John
Beresford, Sir Paul Burns, Simon
Blunt, Crispin Burstow, Paul
Body, Sir Richard Butterfill, John
Campbell, Rt Hon Menzies (NE Fife) Lansley, Andrew
Leigh, Edward
Canavan, Dennis Letwin, Oliver
Cash, William Lewis, Dr Julian (New Forest E)
Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet) Lidington, David
Livsey, Richard
Chope, Christopher Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)
Clappison, James Llwyd, Elfyn
Clark, Dr Michael (Rayleigh) Loughton, Tim
Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Rushcliffe) Luff, Peter
Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
Collins, Tim MacGregor, Rt Hon John
Colvin, Michael McIntosh, Miss Anne
Cormack, Sir Patrick MacKay, Rt Hon Andrew
Cotter, Brian Maclean, Rt Hon David
Cran, James Maclennan, Rt Hon Robert
Curry, Rt Hon David McLoughlin, Patrick
Davey, Edward (Kingston) Madel, Sir David
Davies, Quentin (Grantham) Mates, Michael
Davis, Rt Hon David (Haltemprice & Howden) Maude, Rt Hon Francis
May, Mrs Theresa
Dorrell, Rt Hon Stephen Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll & Bute)
Duncan, Alan Moore, Michael
Ewing, Mrs Margaret Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway)
Faber, David Moss, Malcolm
Fabricant, Michael Nicholls, Patrick
Fallon, Michael Norman, Archie
Fearn, Ronnie O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)
Flight, Howard Ottaway, Richard
Forth, Rt Hon Eric Page, Richard
Foster, Don (Bath) Paterson, Owen
Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman Pickles, Eric
Fox, Dr Liam Prior, David
Fraser, Christopher Randall, John
Gale, Roger Redwood, Rt Hon John
Garnier, Edward Rendel, David
George, Andrew (St Ives) Robathan, Andrew
Gibb, Nick Robertson, Laurence
Gill, Christopher Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne)
Gorman, Mrs Teresa Rowe, Andrew (Faversham)
Gorrie, Donald Ruffley, David
Gray, James Russell, Bob (Colchester)
Green, Damian St Aubyn, Nick
Grieve, Dominic Sanders, Adrian
Gummer, Rt Hon John Sayeed, Jonathan
Hague, Rt Hon William Shepherd, Richard
Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archie Simpson, Keith (Mid-Norfolk)
Hammond, Philip Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns)
Harris, Dr Evan Spelman, Mrs Caroline
Hawkins, Nick Spicer, Sir Michael
Heath, David (Somerton & Frome) Spring, Richard
Heath, Rt Hon Sir Edward Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John
Heathcoat-Amory, Rt Hon David Streeter, Gary
Horam, John Stunell, Andrew
Howard, Rt Hon Michael Swayne, Desmond
Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot) Swinney, John
Hughes, Simon (Southwark N) Syms, Robert
Hunter, Andrew Tapsell, Sir Peter
Jack, Rt Hon Michael Taylor, Ian (Esher & Walton)
Jackson, Robert (Wantage) Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Jenkin, Bernard Taylor, Sir Teddy
Johnson Smith, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey Tredinnick, David
Trend, Michael
Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham) Tyrie, Andrew
Keetch, Paul Walter, Robert
Kennedy, Rt Hon Charles (Ross Skye & Inverness W) Wardle, Charles
Waterson, Nigel
Key, Robert Webb, Steve
King, Rt Hon Tom (Bridgwater) Wells, Bowen
Whitney, Sir Raymond
Kirkbride, Miss Julie Whittingdale, John
Kirkwood, Archy Widdecombe, Rt Hon Miss Ann
Laing, Mrs Eleanor Wigley, Rt Hon Dafydd
Wilkinson, John Woodward, Shaun
Willetts, David Yeo, Tim
Willis, Phil Young, Rt Hon Sir George
Wilshire, David Tellers for the Noes:
Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton) Mrs. Jacqui Lait and
Winterton, Nicholas (Macclesfield) Mr. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown.

Question accordingly agreed to.

Lords amendment disagreed to.

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