Benefits Fraud (Hansard, 24 May 1999)

§ 4. Mr. Michael Jack (Fylde)
When he last reviewed his target for the reduction of benefit fraud for the year 1999–2000. [83994]

§ The Secretary of State for Social Security (Mr. Alistair Darling)
For the first time, we have set a measurable target for reducing fraud and error. Our target is to reduce the level of fraud and error in income support and jobseeker's allowance by at least 30 per cent. by 2007, with at least a 10 per cent. reduction by March 2002.

§ Mr. Jack
I am grateful to the Secretary of State for that answer. Pursuant to the reply, a moment ago, of the Minister of State—on the ICL computer project, and the fact that an announcement on it may be made today—may I have the Secretary of State's assurance that, whatever the outcome of his deliberations on a project which has a key part to play in the fight against fraud and inaccuracy, Britain's 23,000 sub-postmasters and postmistresses will continue to have an opportunity to play a key role in the front-line fight against fraud?

§ Mr. Darling
Yes, I can give the right hon. Gentleman that assurance. Later today, my colleague, the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, will be making a statement on the matter—

§ Mr. Leigh
To the House?

§ Mr. Darling
No, he will not be making it to the House. [Interruption.] I can tell the right hon. Member for Fylde (Mr. Jack) that the problem with the project—which we inherited from the previous Government—is that it is three years late, and that its costs were being overrun. Because of that, my colleagues and I conducted a lengthy review of the project to ensure that we had a system that reduced fraud and errors while helping to safeguard the post office network for the future. I am 6 pleased that we have reached an agreement between all the parties. It is a good deal for the Post Office and an extremely good deal for the Benefits Agency.

§ Mr. Eric Forth (Bromley and Chislehurst)
On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

§ Madam Speaker
Order. I cannot take points of order until the end of Question Time. [Interruption.] Order. The right hon. Member for Fylde (Mr. Jack) knows what action he can take if he finds the answer unsatisfactory.

§ Mr. Dale Campbell-Savours (Workington)
My hon. Friend the Minister of State referred to the benefit card. Did my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State read the interesting article in The Sunday Times yesterday that suggested that the national identity card that some of us have been calling for might be announced in the near future? Might that be true, and has the Department of Social Security had any influence over any decision that might be forthcoming?

§ Mr. Darling
I read lots of things in the newspapers, some of which are true and some of which are not. That matter of policy is the responsibility of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary.

§ Mr. Iain Duncan Smith (Chingford and Woodford Green)
The Secretary of State talks about the pathway project knowing that his Department has had a massive involvement in it, but he gives us no information on the situation. Briefings have been given to the Daily Mail, as we saw on Saturday, and to The Independent, in which the Government have deliberately undermined the programme. A written answer by the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field), when he was a Minister, gave no indication of any problems. He said that the programme would be up and running by the end of the year 2000. Last week, the current Minister of State said the same. Now we are told that the Government are going to make a statement, but not to the House. Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us the current situation on the programme? Let us hear the answer here first.

§ Mr. Darling
I think that we have had enough of the hon. Gentleman's synthetic anger about this. Let me repeat that this is another example of our discovering, on coming to office, that a project begun by the previous Government was not working. It was running three years late. That is why we had to review it to ensure two objectives. The first is to safeguard the post office network, which we have done. That is the responsibility of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry. The second was to ensure that we can make payments as effectively, cheaply and efficiently as possible to Benefits Agency customers. We have sorted out the mess. If the hon. Gentleman wants further information in the House or elsewhere, it is perfectly possible for him to get it through the usual channels, as he knows full well.

§ Mr. Duncan Smith
The usual channels have twice produced anodyne answers, such as the statement that the programme is due to go ahead with no problems. Never has there been an admission of a problem in a written answer. The Government are prepared to brief the press 7 about problems, but not once do they say anything to the House. Will the Secretary of State take the opportunity to pledge at the Dispatch Box that, as a result of whatever decision that the Government make, pensioners and disabled people will still be able to receive their full range of benefits, as was the plan, through local post offices?

§ Mr. Darling
Yes of course they will, as they can at the moment. I repeat that the project was three years late and was not working. That is why the Government had to review it. We have had long discussions with ICL, the supplier. The hon. Gentleman would hardly expect those discussions to be taking place on the front pages of the newspapers.

§ Mr. Duncan Smith
The right hon. Gentleman briefed the papers.

§ Mr. Darling
The hon. Gentleman must contain himself, particularly when he is making wild and unsubstantiated allegations. We are acting in the best interests of the Benefits Agency and the post office network to ensure that we get payments into the hands of people who are entitled to them, to reduce the amount of fraud and error in the system and safeguard the post office network. When people see the announcement later today, they will understand that we have protected the public interest, unlike the Conservative party.